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Truth Please!

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coke

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Well, there is nothing I would rather believe than past lives and related concepts, but I have yet to see anything that convinces me. I see a lot of people taking what others say as the truth with little or no skepticism. I see explanations for events or occurences being put forth as metaphysical or devine with out any consideration for scientific or more conventional sources.
I have come to the conclusion that the entire new age community is fooling themselves and others. Where would one find definitive proof? Anyone out there want to accept my challenge? Please don't refer me to one guru's book or another full of anecdotal evidence that is so clearly fabricated or at least unverifiable. Please don't tell me to "have faith" as only the truly dilusional can find comfort in such tripe.

I challenge anyone out there to prove it!
 
Dear Coke

What is it exactly that you seem so intent on proving???

The things discussed on this website are from questioning minds, from personal experience and some from scientific proof. No-one can prove to another what they don’t want or can’t believe, anymore than they can conform to their beliefs…so I’m not quite sure what the intent of your challenge is.

And what are the more conventional sources in comparison to one’s own “truth” and “known”????

Out of interest, have you read any of Dr Ian Stevenson’s work or any of the posts in the Stevenson section of this forum…he was a man of scientific reasoning, and what he presented was based on his own scientific research.

Lots of Love
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Kelly


[This message has been edited by Kelly (edited 06-03-2001).]
 
Hi Coke,

I accept your challenge. But you need to be VERY specific regarding what exactly what you want proof of and tell me what constitutes proof to you? Scientifically there is more proof for metaphysics than for classical physics.

Shall we start with the work of Bohm and the Hologram? Or perhaps quanta both theory and reality? Or perhaps you would like to discuss the holotropic mind.

If not any of the above...Perhaps ancient religion is your preference and their belief systems regarding reincarnation? Sumeria? China? Babylon? Egyptian? How about Chaldean?

If not how about the work of Ian Stevenson. The leading researcher in the field of proof regarding reincarnation.

Give me a focus point and let's see where this takes us. Oh and BTW - I have deleted the one in the Children section..please do not post in more than one area. Thank you!

------------------
Love,
Deborah

Lifes experiences weave a tapestry of knowledge
 
Hi Coke:

Welcome to the forum.

No spiritual path is right or wrong, we are going to the same place. God is God no matter how we approach him/her or the name that we assign. The accounts of reincarnation and metaphysical incidents I hear are based on individual experience. Even with all the literature on the "reincarnation and related concepts," most people can make their own decision on what is legitimate and what is not.

[*]Why is it so important that others must "prove" to you that reincarnation exists?

[*]What kind of scientific or conventional sources are you looking for?

[*]What leads you to beleive that the whole new age community is fooling themselves?

Your post intrigued me because I can relate; before I left organized religion, I carried the "prove it" attitude regarding the same issues you address. For me, this was just the stepping stone to finding my own truth. It doesn't matter what others say or don't say, we have to find out what is true for us. The greatest universal truth is the existence of God and God's unconditional love for everyone, the rest we have to find on our own.

Susie



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Free will allows me to choose my path, but my Higher Power lights the way....
 
I truly doubt that there is more scientific proof of reincarnation and metaphysics than conventional physics - that's just plain wrong. What I am looking for is not the belief systems of the world's religions, or the writings of professors, etc. What I am looking for is to see for myself the nature of reincarnation or metaphysics. I have been to psychics and regressionists, and most (perhaps all) are complete frauds - some so bad it is laughable. Don't get me wrong, I am like Houdini -I am on a quest. My mind is open and yearning to know, but, as a scientist myself, I have to maintain my intellectual honesty - something that has been sacrificed by so many.
 
Hi Coke! I think the previous posts have given you a lot to think about. What I would like to know is what makes you associate reincarnation with "new age" community? Is that how you came across it?
It isn't some kind of "cult" phenomena. It's been around thousands of years. At one time the early major religions taught it but took it out because it made people more independent about their life purpose, and therefore harder for the church to control. If you are sincere in trying to understand reincarnation, welcome to this forum. Listen and learn.

Love, barbara
 
Hi Coke:

Why do you believe that all or most psychics and regressionists are frauds? What experience has led you to this conclusion?

Susie


------------------
Free will allows me to choose my path, but my Higher Power lights the way....
 
Hello Coke,

I understand your skepticism and would like to say that, for many years, my thoughts were very similar to yours.
For me, personally, I encountered situations that began to make me wonder if there was not indeed more to what both science and religion had lead me to believe.
On one occasion, I was leaning against a car at night and a man approached me out of the blue, asked me to excuse him for coming to speak to me like that, said he had seen what was happening in my life as if on a film above my eyebrows (I now believe that this corresponds to the region of our frontal chakra) and began to spill out my whole life out of the blue.
I am saying this in an attempt to tell you that perhaps there is indeed more to everything than science can tell us, that evidence CAN indeed be found if one truly looks for it with an open mind and an open heart. Just the testimonies of so many should already be taken very much into consideration.
Science has not yet reached the stage where it can prove spirituality. It is still, fortunately or unfortunately, very much a question of FAITH. But do try not to be too mislead. It is true that there are those who are sincere and those who are not in all fields.
What I keep thinking, though, is that science and many scientists are repeating the same kind of mistake the leaders of the church in the Middle Ages made when they didn't, for instance, accept that the world was not flat and that Earth was not at the center of the universe.

Love and Light,

Charles
 
HI Coke,

Since you did not address my question I will go with science since you say you have a scientific background. But I brought up the Pythagorean Doctrine thread for your enjoyment.

Physicists now suggest that the universe is a hologram, or holomovement that contains both matter and consciousness as a single field. All matter is inseparably woven, enfolded throughout the totality of the universe. Are you familiar with the book - The Self Aware Universe - how consciousness creates the material world? By Amit Goswami. Ph.D?

Physicist David Bohm suggests that all life and intelligence are present in time and space, that they are woven within the entire universe. Every portion of any object contains the whole, and every portion of the universe enfolds the whole. Bohm also indicates, “that we even construct space and time,” past, present and future.

Michael Talbot in his book "The Holographic Universe," considers the work of Bohm and implies:
“Our brains mathematically construct objective reality by interpreting frequencies that are ultimately projections from another dimension, a deeper order of existence that is both beyond space and time. The brain is a hologram enfolded in a holographic Universe.”
Click to expand...

Life is energy - VIBRATION. The ancients knew this -it is at the root of the greatest mysteries in both religion and science. The original WORD was spelled WYRD and means "to become, to be, that which is." Quantum physicists have come to the conclusion that, one way or another, MATTER cannot exist without some consciousness to perceive it.

So Coke -with your scientific background - this leaves PROOF where?

Since we are so chained to the causality of Newtonian or classical physics, it is nearly impossible for most people to BELIEVE that inner and outer events might relate noncausally. An actual relation seems like no relation at all. Besides that there is the obstacle of the deeply held belief in the split between mind and matter.

When we BELIEVE that the MIND is a self --a contained autonomous mental principle that gazes out upon the material world, we create alienation and isolation of subject, and alienation from nature. There is new research being done that suggests more than most can fathom-----

If our thoughts deduce matter, then it exists. If matter is not observed, then does it exist? Science now questions this very premise.

So..now where are we?

------------------
Love,
Deborah

Lifes experiences weave a tapestry of knowledge
 
Dear Coke,

I don't know if you are still reading but I had a few other thoughts regarding your posts.
You know, in fact there are ways of verifying the issue of reincarnation and, although they may still be merely at a speculative stage, there is ample material on which to base conclusions. Despite your apparent reluctance to do so, I would indeed suggest that, first of all, you should attempt to read and research further into the issue before you reach your conclusions. Any good scientist would do this.
What I really wanted to comment on were the terms "New Age Community" and "maintaining intelectual honesty" that you used. I believe that, if you have read any further, you will have realized that here on the board there is a vast range of people from different continents, races and religions or lines of thought. Many here disagree with one another's frame of understanding and beliefs, even though we might all be in agreement regarding reincarnation. Nobody here is a part of a sect, this board is not a sect, we are all merely attempting to discuss the issue of reincarnation and, by sharing, hopefully better understand what is implied in it and reach our own personal conclusions.
Nobody here, I believe, is attempting to impose upon others their personal beliefs, even though there might be some occasional arguments due to different ways of understanding.
I would love to be able to find proof. It would be a dream for me. But as it is only possible to obtain evidence on a personal level, I am quite content with trying to share what I have come to learn with others. In doing so, I do feel I am keeping up with my "intellectual honesty".
There is a prayer I know that has a passage I really like: "Give me faith and reason." I am not looking out, I don't think, in blind faith. I believe those days are almost over in this world. I am attempting, as I think most of us here are, to add reasoning to my faith.

Light,

Charles
 
Well, where do I begin. Thanks to all of you for your kind words and feedback. And I need to peface this by saying that it is not my intention to offend anyone. If nothing else, this is fodder for discussion. I look forward to another round of responses to this note - please don't let me tick you off or scare you away!

I am sad to say, however, that much of what I have heard in response to my intitial inquiry is pretty much what I expected - well intentioned but not too substantive.

Deborah, I did some research on the researchers you mentioned - interesting for sure. I must admit I had a very difficult time reading the Amit Goswami's treatise - did not seem to make any sense really. And after reading the critiques from the many scientists who opposed his ideas, I felt comfort that I was not alone in feeling there were some glaring inconsistencies...Although I am well aware that young, radical theories are often met with strong criticism from the community as a whole (because they often upset the status quo...), I am also aware that some of the new radical theories are met with such criticism because they are crud...

Now for David Bohm, I will admit that his theories are indeed very interesting and definitely worth further studies. And I hope that there are great minds out there continuing his studies. Granted in the past 24 hours I have only read a few dozen pages of his work, and comments on his work by others, I have failed to see anything but theory and conjecture and very interesting postulates. In fact, in the late 80's, I believe that even he stated that it would be several decades before anything resembling evidence/proof for is theories could be acheived. Perhaps I am wrong, but this is what I gleaned from the literature.
It seems like good coffee table talk, but it is a long way from scientific truth - a long, long way.

Now for Talbot, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't his book simply an essay on the work of others? I term paper put in to paperback? Again, I did not read it - only read the synopses that abound....It seemed to echo Bohm and another neurophysiologist out of Stanford...

I will be the first to acknowledge that the true nature of the world and universe is far beyond the scope of conventional science as it exists today (in its infancy!). And as a trained ecologist, accepting the interconnectedness of things is an easy concept to grasp. But to take the leap from the physical to the metaphysical, as many of these people mentioned above have, seems an intellectual stretch at best! To me it is like the Christian argument, "proof of God is all around - the trees, the birds, the grass...." I think you know what I mean. The fact that there are birds, trees and grasses, is NOT proof of God. Yet there are millions who need think no further at all than that. I envy such people. I remember some bumper stickers from a few years back:"I let Rush Limbaugh do my thinking for me" I think my analogy is clear.

Just as right-wing Christians have done with Duane Gish (author of Evolution: the Fossils Say No), new agers have adopted and whole-heartedly embraced so-called scientists (and in some cases psuedoscientists ) because they seem to lend validity to their metaphysical claims. I can tell by some of the comments on message boards that the literature is clearly above the heads of many who are trying to read it, but, hey, since a "scientist" is saying it, it must be right....right?

Reading a lot of what was recommended, I saw an embarrasingly large amount of fluff words that any first year communications student would be able to pick out. Words such as "...so and so has the support of many other scientists..." Which other scientists? "...so and so is an esteemed member of the prestigious Noetic University....What the heck is the Noetic University? I am sorry, it is way too easy to create your own credentials and way too easy to find believers ready to blindly accept them because you lend validity to their causes or thoughts.

Why am I so skeptical? Because I have caught so many (virtually 100%) of everyone in the community in either outright lies or intellectual dishonesty. The outright lies are easy to deal with. Just look at the web - it seems that every Joe new ager and his brother is out for the fast buck. Visa is accepted everywhere! The con is on and it seems like the prey are everywhere!

The intellectually dishonest are harder to deal with. Money may not be their driving force, but their need to suport their views of life, death, and the metaphysical has lead them to blindly accept anything. I found it interesting to read how many were completely accepting Bohm's concepts as scientific fact even though he maintained they were simply theories - still waiting for mathematical proof!

What I am looking for is much more basic. Granted, I am intrigued by theories such as Bohm's, but I don't need that much. I would be happy with a simple "metaphysical" experience that my simple mind would not explain any other way than "it was spiritual". I have had many of what new agers would call "affirming" and "outright proof" experiences, but I was able to explain each and every one using conventional and rational explanations - metaphysical explanations where neither necessary nor the best explanations. Others have disagreed with me, but they already had the answers!

So I guess this is my challenge - is there anyone out there who can do this for me? Or guide me in the right direction? I am all ears - even though I am very skeptical!

Thanks for taking the time to read my rambles....
 
Just as a side. I have indeed done an incredible amount of research on the subject. If you could see my library on the topic, you would probably ask yourself, "why is he still no convinced..?" But nothing has surpased the anecdotal level...
 
Well Coke, I congratulate you on your great post.
The bet is on, and in fact I would like to ask you to please assist us on this topic in any way you can. Your knowledge and skepticism would make an interesting and, I believe, advantageous addition to this board.
In fact, I think the question is not only to prove it but also to prove against it.
Could I ask you a favor? Could you post on the board or email me your full name and date of birth? I can get you a psychic reading with these and you can tell me what you think. If you do not wish others on the board to share the result, I will email them to you personally.
Do not send me them now, for I must first arrange an appointment for the reading. Just for the record, the reading is done by an incorporated "entity" who presents herself as a guide called Tia Rita. As soon as I have arranged it, I will inform you of the date and you can send it to me the day before. Deal?

Light,

Charles
 
Coke,

Do you really consider Dr. Ian Stephenson's research ancedotal? I'd really like to hear your thoughts!

Ultimately you need to ask yourself why you are so interested in proof and what type of proof it would take to satisfy your doubts.

The answer is within you and no one here or anywhere can provide otherwise.

I respect your diligence in seeking truth.

Best of luck on your journey,

Mark
 
Charles!

Thanks for accepting my challenge. I have no problem at all posting my personal info in the forum. I look forward to hearing from you when you get it all arranged.

Coke
 
OK, Coke.

I'll arrange it and get back to you. It was through Tia Rita that I received a lot of my own personal evidence. Let's see if some of it might rub off on you.
Just for the record, I live in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, so it will be rather difficult for me to even get to know your name from here, much less who you are, what you do or any of your personal history.
The reading is done with Yoruban Cowel shells. It involves Kaballah so a lot can be "seen" just by knowing a person's name and date of birth. After I send you what comes out, I am sure you will be honest enough to state what matches and what does not, if anything. Then perhaps, if what is said is correct to a significant degree, you could attempt to explain through a scientific point of view how this can be done.
This could be interesting...

Light,

Charles
 
Hi Coke! You certainly have a lot on your plate, LOL. I think the "proof" you are looking for will come only from yourself. At least, only you can identify it as "proof".

I think we choose our lives, a blueprint before birth, for whatever reasons we feel are necessary at the time to reincarnate. We may have a glimmer of a past life between ages 3-5, but we fly by the seat of our pants the rest of our life. A regresssion that explains what a past life was and how if affects the present life is like icing on the cake... it gives you a clue to what might be happening. Many on this forum have had such experience, and have found it helpful.

I have never had that (it would have been nice)but when I examine my life, my choices, the roads taken (and not taken) I have accomplished things that I could/would not have otherwise done. It's coherent to me and makes sense, probably following my "blueprint". My belief in reincarnation supports (for myself) that nothing happens in a vacuum, everything has its purpose and is essentially how I planned it. A rationalization? Maybe. I have such a deep intuitive sense that my soul is eternal. I cannot accept that on such-n-such date I was born and on such-n-such will die and that's it. Over. Barbara is kaput, but that's not ME! Do you have that sense of eternality at all?

For just a moment, pretend you believe in reincarnation, that you chose this life, purpose as yet unknown. Think about the family you chose to be born in to, siblings, extended family. Geographical area. The historical time. Do you have a driving urge to do "something?" Do you have a particular interest in any field... what gave you that interest? Do you meet people you instantly like.. or don't like. Do you feel that certain people are exceptionally helpful in helping you attain things? What is your goal for this lifetime? Does the work you do now put you in a position to achieve this goal? Are there family matters you feel are "old as time" that you would like to conclude?

Anyway, you get the picture, I'm sure. You may never have a "Eureka!" but don't let that stop your exploration into the possibility and encouraging world of reincarnation.

Love, barbara
 
Mark!

Thanks for the response. Granted I have not read Dr. Stevenson's entire body of work, butn from what I have read, anecdotal is the only word to apply. It is absolutely anecdotal. If I am not mistaken, even he maintains that his is merely anecdotal evidence that is "suggestive" of reincarnation.

Perhaps you are right that no one can provide me the evidence that I am searching for, but I am still going to give it the ol' college try!

thanks again!

Coke
 
What I am looking for....Proof could come from many levels. An incredible reading could do it. A sighting could do it. Basically anything my simple brain could not explain away. Hope that helps. thanks
 
Hiya people,

Charles...I knew you would charge ahead on this one. I cannot wait for the results.

Coke - you said...."But to take the leap from the physical to the metaphysical, as many of these people mentioned above have, seems an intellectual stretch at best!"
But .isn't that the task of science? To stretch intellectually the boundaries of what is known and delve into the unknown?

What about that article in TIME magazine that highlighted the work of the top ten NEW scientists in their field and how they were shattering old scientific paradigms?

I will have to do my own research now -- to see what I come up with regarding your mathematical inquiries. Mmmmm Maybe Scwaller de Lubicz?

Another accredited University is JFK University in Berkeley, California.

You also said..and this seems to be your whole point..."I would be happy with a simple "metaphysical" experience that my simple mind would not explain any other way than "it was spiritual."

Do you meditate? I have some ideas..but until I understand what you expect..what you are looking for, I'll wait.

And what about my question? Quantum physicists have come to the conclusion that, one way or another, MATTER cannot exist without some consciousness to perceive it.
So where does this leave classical science and it's "proofs?" What is their rebuttal on this one?


------------------
Love,
Deborah

Life's experiences weave a tapestry of knowledge
 
Last edited:
Deborah,

Thanks again for the input. Yes science does delve in to the world of the unknown in the persuit of truth through a series of repeatable steps to reach a conclusion that is based on the results achieved or the observations made. When done correctly and honestly, it really is a pure process. Once conclusions have withstood multiple attempts to verify and, more importantly, falsify, then we can start discussing science facts. This is an often long and arduous process if done right. Many of the leaps that I was discussing in my last posting were so great as to indicate that no rational and logical methodoligies were employed in reaching them.

I see your question about matter not existing without conciousness to perceive it exactly like the old phylosophy 101 question: "if a tree falls in a forest with no one to hear it, does it make a noise?" The answer is of course it does - noise is simply atomic movement! When a tree falls, then atoms move! The answer could also be, of course not - noise is simply random movements of atoms over tympanic memebranes in the inner which subsequently causes several small bones to vibrate and whose vibrations are picked up by auditory nerves and sent to specific auditory regions of the brain.... My point being, it depends on how you look at it. And for matter - I think that is even easier - there is no duality of perception here. Matter is defined simply as anything that has mass and takes up space...maybe I am dense (excuse my pun), but I am not sure what conciousness has to do with it...?

Thanks - I am enjoying this debate.

And Charles - I am looking forward to your proposal. I will be happy to keep it all in the public forum. And if course, I will keep my mind open and comment in a forthright, honest manner.
 
Hi Coke,

Just me..I skim read the thread - where was the Noetic University brought up? I only provided a link..I am not familiar with this particular one..the one I am familiar with is in Palo Alto, California. I didn't see an address for the darn thing..made me wonder.

------------------
Love,
Deborah

Lifes experiences weave a tapestry of knowledge
 
Dorie,

Good question. I am not sure exactly what or where my spirituality is presently. I have studied Buddhism fairly indepth, and agree wholeheartedly with its moral teachings and its life guiding strategies, but still am skeptical on some of the mystical aspects. Not sure about kharma and things along those lines. Finding the answers to my questions would basically fill in all of the gaps in my Buddhist beliefs.

But I definitely do not believe in a "god" in the Christian sense. But I felt this way long before I went to grad school! But that would also agree with Buddhism teachings...

I am still on a qwest!
 
Hi Coke,

I will try to set it up for next Tuesday and would ask you to send me your full name and date of birth on Monday evening, that way you can feel a little safer as to my not knowing anything about you, which can count as preventing any type of fraud. If, by any chance, you do not wish to disclose your identity here, which would be perfectly understandable, please feel free to email me with the information by clicking on my email icon above.
Also, I have attempted to write about how I achieved my own personal evidence. It might not be a top work of literature but I believe you might find it of interest. Also, it is FREE (LOL). I can send it to you by email if you are interested.

All the best,

Charles
 
Charles,

Thanks again for you kind offer! I will of course give you my name and birthdate next monday if not sooner. Is that all you require? I am totally fine keeping this on the public forum. I am glad that you can do this early next week because I will be in South America myself the weekend after next for about one month.

I will be in touch!

Thanks again!

Coke
 
Hi Coke,

No, that will be enough: just name and date of birth. The less information you give me the better. This way I hope you will not feel that whatever might be said could derive from my knowing anything about you beforehand or that you yourself might have influenced the reading in any way.
If the information that comes out is relevant to you, I hope it will help you to be a little less skeptical. This will be the only purpose of my requesting the reading for you.
Would you happen to have any scientific principle that could explain information about a person being achieved simply by using this person's name and date of birth? I would like to hear of it if you do. Oh, and by the way, this is not astrology. It will be a reading made specifically for you.
The explanation to such a psychic reading is that the person's "head" is brought to the reading. Tia Rita can also see the person and events in a glass of water with some stones and crystals. I don't know how far you have gone in "The Holographic Universe" but this was the first book I ever read that attempted to give a feasible scientific explanation for such paranormal phenomena.
Another "scientific" attempt I very much enjoy is the theory that our subconscious is eternal and retains all knowledge and memories we acquire. My personal belief is that our subconscious is very closely associated to our souls. In each incarnation we receive a brand new "conscious level proper", but our subconscious is eternal and indestructable.

Light,

Charles
 
Dear Coke,

I have a quick question.....don't you think that, if you try hard enough, you could "explain away" *any* paranormal experience?? I've seen enough "skeptics" do it a thousand times in the sense that they grasp hold of whatever physical explanation presents itself, even if it's more absurd than the metaphysical one when compared with the situation at hand. The people on this board can only do so much in helping you have an out-of-the-ordinary encounter. They can't hook you up with a ghost or tell you where to find aliens. I've had a few simple yet strange experiences myself, but no one could've told me how or where to come across them.

I'm not a "believer" per se, I'm an agnostic. As far as I'm concerned, no one has been able to "prove" the paranormal, but no scientist has ever given me reason to to disregard it completely. Proof is nice, but my reasoning skills tell me that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

--GK
 
Well Coke,

It seems you've definitely stirred things up here a little (LOL).
Just posting to make a small correction in my previous post: please read "conscious mind proper".
 
Coke, you sure have started an interesting thread here. I just wanted to thank you for agreeing to keep everything on the forum. I am really interested to see how the reading goes and what you think of it.
I'm curious, what do you think of the spontaneous memories of very young children? What is your theory for how/why they view these memories as former lives?



------------------
~^Faerieluv^~
 
GK - You are probably right, it would be possible to explain anything away using "science", but I like to consider myself objective enough to not do that. In other words, I would absolutely attempt to explain anything seen or heard using conventional, rational means, and if need be, science. But if all of that fails, what is left? But keep in mind, that is what I am looking for - something that is beyond of rational explanation - something that leaves me no other alternatives. I would love nothing else than to experience something like this.

FaerieLuv-
Spontaneous memories by children are also very interesting indeed. I agree with Dr. Stevenson that they are "suggestive" of reincarnation, but definitely not proof. There are many variables to consider, especially when dealing with statements made by children. For example, could they be mimicking statements heard by adults or on the TV or radio? Could they be being fed info from unwitting or malicious adults, as has been proven time and time again in molestation trials and so-called therapists? Could they just be saying silly things that kids say? When what they say is verified by actual visits to other villages and confirmed with great details, that is interesting indeed! But I find it equally interesting, and potentially damming to the credibility of such accounts, that a vastly disproportunate number of such accounts occur in countries that consider reincarnation basic to their religion.
 
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