Viking Age Denmark
- Thread starter Sunniva
- Start date
Sunniva
Administrator Emeritus
Hi Thalia,
Any news on Iona?
Apparantly the island was victim to many, many viking raids during the AD800's. There was a famous monastery there, which eventually moved to Ireland because of it.
I don't know much about the 'ordinary' people there. The abbots of the monastery were buried in stonecoffins actually, however I haven't found any that matches your descriptions.
Have you remembered anything else?
Lila,
How about you?
I'm so curious lol
Any news on Iona?
Apparantly the island was victim to many, many viking raids during the AD800's. There was a famous monastery there, which eventually moved to Ireland because of it.
I don't know much about the 'ordinary' people there. The abbots of the monastery were buried in stonecoffins actually, however I haven't found any that matches your descriptions.
Have you remembered anything else?
Lila,
How about you?
I'm so curious lol
Lila P
Member
Well, Sunniva, I haven´t shared the dream I had a few years ago about vikings.
I remember standing in front of three (?) men who were obviously vikings. They were wild looking men with long, carrot-red beards. They looked very alike and I think they were brothers, two of them may have been even twins.
I looked at these men and although they looked wild, I was happy to see them. They were my friends and I wanted to embrace them all.
And that was it. I don´t remember any specific details anymore, because I didn´t write the dream down when I saw it.
Although I have only bits and pieces of this Viking life of mine, I can easily describe what he is like. He´s a powerful, energetic and passionate guy with hot temper and he doesn´t care much about diplomacy. His rage is as passionate as his love. Now try to live with that one! This guy is still very much part of me and it was a huge task to accept him as a part of my personality.
I remember standing in front of three (?) men who were obviously vikings. They were wild looking men with long, carrot-red beards. They looked very alike and I think they were brothers, two of them may have been even twins.
I looked at these men and although they looked wild, I was happy to see them. They were my friends and I wanted to embrace them all.
And that was it. I don´t remember any specific details anymore, because I didn´t write the dream down when I saw it. Although I have only bits and pieces of this Viking life of mine, I can easily describe what he is like. He´s a powerful, energetic and passionate guy with hot temper and he doesn´t care much about diplomacy. His rage is as passionate as his love. Now try to live with that one! This guy is still very much part of me and it was a huge task to accept him as a part of my personality.
Sunniva
Administrator Emeritus
It sure matches my image of a viking
What I found interesting was that you said he didn't care about diplomacy. Now that was - at least that's how it seems - why the Sct. Brice massacre took place.
The English King had paid the Danish vikings 24.000 pounds of silver to stop their raidings. That lasted about year. Then a fraction of the vikings broke loose and started raiding again. Surely they didn't care much for diplomacy.
And that was what made Ethelred the Unready furious
What I found interesting was that you said he didn't care about diplomacy. Now that was - at least that's how it seems - why the Sct. Brice massacre took place.
The English King had paid the Danish vikings 24.000 pounds of silver to stop their raidings. That lasted about year. Then a fraction of the vikings broke loose and started raiding again. Surely they didn't care much for diplomacy.
And that was what made Ethelred the Unready furious
Thalia
Probationary
]I agree with you Lila P:thumbsup:
Sunniva about your question I find this photo familiar, I hope u can see it well. http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n225/Reika-Kuze/Iona.jpg
The red arrow shows where I saw those coffins. About the blue arrow, in those times I think that part was united I hope I explained well.
About my past live in those times, I really don't know why my father killed me
. Maybe he hated women?
Sunniva about your question I find this photo familiar, I hope u can see it well. http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n225/Reika-Kuze/Iona.jpg
The red arrow shows where I saw those coffins. About the blue arrow, in those times I think that part was united I hope I explained well.
About my past live in those times, I really don't know why my father killed me
. Maybe he hated women?
Thalia
Probationary
I think he wanted to get rid of me because he didn't want a woman to be "Queen"?
In my viking life I saw some helmets with wings, metal wings. I read somewhere that only the wealthy used it.
I remember creating like a drink that was like an afrodisiac, everyone thought that was a gift from the gods but I just made it with some flowers and some other plants that I found:laugh: :thumbsup:. I remember seeing some women warrior, they were my idols...my father hated them ....
In my viking life I saw some helmets with wings, metal wings. I read somewhere that only the wealthy used it.
I remember creating like a drink that was like an afrodisiac, everyone thought that was a gift from the gods but I just made it with some flowers and some other plants that I found:laugh: :thumbsup:. I remember seeing some women warrior, they were my idols...my father hated them
....
Sunniva
Administrator Emeritus
Thalia, please don't take this the wrong way. I only mean to help you further onto the truth and perhaps seperate pl memories from imagination.
I can't know what you've seen or how you experienced it, but I can let you know of the historical inaccuracies, so that you don't lead your mind to believe something which was not. : angel I really don't mean to insult you doing this.
But, the vikings didn't wear wings on their helmets. I'm very sorry to say Nor did they wear horns (this image actually stems from some Bronze Age helmets).
The viking helmets were very much like the one's used later on in the middleages. The way the wealthy people of the time would display their situation was through beautifully ornamented stuff, like axes and swords ornamented with gold and silver or clothes with gold and silver embroidery.
For an archeologist it breaks his/her heart to hear of vikings with winged or horned helmets, because it's purely an invention of the present. That's why I felt I had to correct that
I hope I didn't discourage you, Thalia.
I can't know what you've seen or how you experienced it, but I can let you know of the historical inaccuracies, so that you don't lead your mind to believe something which was not. : angel I really don't mean to insult you doing this.
But, the vikings didn't wear wings on their helmets. I'm very sorry to say
Nor did they wear horns (this image actually stems from some Bronze Age helmets).The viking helmets were very much like the one's used later on in the middleages. The way the wealthy people of the time would display their situation was through beautifully ornamented stuff, like axes and swords ornamented with gold and silver or clothes with gold and silver embroidery.
For an archeologist it breaks his/her heart to hear of vikings with winged or horned helmets, because it's purely an invention of the present. That's why I felt I had to correct that
I hope I didn't discourage you, Thalia.
Lila P
Member
Thalia, I still think that you sound more like a celt than a viking:
And traditionally women in Scandinavia have been quite strong and independent and what I´ve read, this was the case even in the Viking age. Women had much more rights in a viking society than elsewhere in Europe. I also got some support to this idea after reading Kalevala, the Finnish national epic, which derives from the Viking age. Although Finns were not Vikings, there has always been a close connection to other Nordic contries and the lifestyle may have been quite similar. Anyway, Kalevala is full of strong female figures and the strongest one is of course Louhi, the matron of Pohjola. She had a husband, but Louhi was much more important and she was practically the leader of the whole village. Of course, this story is made up, just Finnish mythology, but it tells that women were not treated as subordinates of men.
Lila P
Member
Oh yes, Sunniva. I think that I have had a life as a Viking and a Norman, but I still have to validate this. I have a memory of an army - and especially cavalry - preparing for a battle, and looking at the armour, they looked like normans. Chainmail suits and conical iron helmets with nasal armour. I think the style is called "Spangen" which was quite common between the 9th and 12th C.
So my questions are:
Did vikings use cavalry or is it a norman speciality?
How commonly was chainmail used among the vikings?
How well were the viking raids organized? In my vision I got a feeling of a big and well organized army.
So my questions are:
Did vikings use cavalry or is it a norman speciality?
How commonly was chainmail used among the vikings?
How well were the viking raids organized? In my vision I got a feeling of a big and well organized army.
Sunniva
Administrator Emeritus
Lila,
Although the vikings did have horses and were into fancy riding equipment, they didn't use them in battle. The historians don't think that cavalry was used (in Denmark anyway) before 1200AD. So yes you could say it was a Norman speciality of the time.
Chainmail was most likely a part of (almost) any warriors amour at that time. Archeologically we have found chainmails much earlier than the Vikings. However, whether it was for everyone or just a few, we don't know
To your question of organization: oh yes, they were probably very well organized. Logistically they simply had to be because of their size. By this time the king was a centralized power and he was probably the mind behind most of it. However unorganized and chaotic the raidings may seem today, they were highly organized. Already from 500 years before we believe that the army was divided into generals, officers and ordinary soldiers - inspired by the Romans. This pattern was probably still used. We are probably talking about professional soldiers, who were trained and got paid for what they did.
Although the vikings did have horses and were into fancy riding equipment, they didn't use them in battle. The historians don't think that cavalry was used (in Denmark anyway) before 1200AD. So yes
you could say it was a Norman speciality of the time.Chainmail was most likely a part of (almost) any warriors amour at that time. Archeologically we have found chainmails much earlier than the Vikings. However, whether it was for everyone or just a few, we don't know
To your question of organization: oh yes, they were probably very well organized. Logistically they simply had to be because of their size. By this time the king was a centralized power and he was probably the mind behind most of it. However unorganized and chaotic the raidings may seem today, they were highly organized. Already from 500 years before we believe that the army was divided into generals, officers and ordinary soldiers - inspired by the Romans. This pattern was probably still used. We are probably talking about professional soldiers, who were trained and got paid for what they did.
Lila P
Member
Thank you again Sunniva, for your reply.
I also wonder how fashionable the beard was during the Viking Age and if it was shaven before a battle.
In my vision of that Norman(?) army I don´t remember men having beards and if they did, they were very short. I don´t remember seeing long hairs either.
I also wonder how fashionable the beard was during the Viking Age and if it was shaven before a battle.
In my vision of that Norman(?) army I don´t remember men having beards and if they did, they were very short. I don´t remember seeing long hairs either.
Sunniva
Administrator Emeritus
I'm glad you found it useful
Well, it's a bit more difficult to say something about the beards for obvious reasons. But, we do have razers from that period, so they weren't long-bearded all the time
You know, it could be down to the individual. Perhaps some men thought that their strength was on the beard (like in Samson and Delilah), perhaps other thought it was better to be clean-shaven, like e.g. fundamental muslims are known to do before a suicide-bomb. It could also be class-related. That only the higher class would shave and the soldiers wouldn't.
Actually, when we look at the personal equipment we sometimes find, it seems as if people were very vain. There are things to do your hair with, clean your ears, razers, pincets etc. But surely as there are people around today who aren't vain, I'm sure there were too among the vikings
I don't know, it's only my thoughts
Well, it's a bit more difficult to say something about the beards for obvious reasons. But, we do have razers from that period, so they weren't long-bearded all the time
You know, it could be down to the individual. Perhaps some men thought that their strength was on the beard (like in Samson and Delilah), perhaps other thought it was better to be clean-shaven, like e.g. fundamental muslims are known to do before a suicide-bomb. It could also be class-related. That only the higher class would shave and the soldiers wouldn't.
Actually, when we look at the personal equipment we sometimes find, it seems as if people were very vain. There are things to do your hair with, clean your ears, razers, pincets etc.
But surely as there are people around today who aren't vain, I'm sure there were too among the vikings I don't know, it's only my thoughts
tanguerra
Moderator Emeritus
Long hair and beards are actually quite a liability in hand to hand fighting, despite what you might sometimes see in the movies with William Wallace and various other historical characters with long, flowing locks and vikings with elaborate beards. I am also sure there were all sorts of hygeine issues back in the day with lice, fleas, etc. especially for men who were often away from home, camping out, etc. Exactly the same reasons why soldiers are clean shaven and keep their hair very short now in fact.
Even today you won't find a bouncer with long hair and a beard (unless he is really dumb and does not know what he's doing) because it is too easy for a ruffian to grab hold of them and get them into a disadvantageous position. They often avoid neckties for this reason as well, depending on the type of 'establishment' they are working for.
I know the samurai kept their hair long, but always had it in a specific style, tied up and shaved at the sides in a very specific way. I guess they did not let anyone get close enough to grab their topknots? Eh?
Just my own observation.
tanguerra
Moderator Emeritus
On horned /winged helmets I found this: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhornedhelmet.html
Various other cultures did, however, wear elaborate helmets, but not for fighting (obviously highly impractical) only for special occasions. This would tend to support Thalia's remark that they wore such things to 'show off'. Birds were important to the Celtic religions and I would think any type of winged helmet would have been used purely for ceremonial purposes. So, Thalia, it is possible your memories relate more to the Celts - however, of course the Vikings occupied England for many centuries, so there would be no surprise if there were cultural overlaps. It would be good to try to dig up a bit more info on that particular memory if you could.
Thalia
Probationary
Its ok
. This wasn't my imagination maybe I just saw it the wrong way...what I mean is I really don't know much about thos civilizations
. I just telling you what I saw . Maybe it wasn't an afrodisiac maybe it was a perfume:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: . Don't worry you didn't insulted me, you are just helping me :thumbsup:Alright then, I'll search more about them
Skarphedinn
Member
I presume warriors didn't shave, not even before battle. OK, let's narrow it down to a certain age and culture: in the Saga of Njal, Hallgerður Höskuldsdóttir and her band kept on mocking Njal, calling him 'the Beardless Carle' for not having beard. The story takes place in the 9/10th century Iceland. We might also take it into consideration, that the saga was written down about two centuries later, so we cannot exclude that it mirrors taste of that era, but I believe we can rely on this historical document.Lila P said:
Normandian conquer took place half a century later, and it is obviously a different culture, regardless the common links between them and the Icelanders. As far as I remember, figures upon the Bayeaux Tapestry didn't have beard.
Skarphedinn
For those that are not familiar with the tapestry - it can be viewed here - Bayeaux Tapestry. Click on the small icons and they enlarge.
Only the king seems to have a beard from what I viewed, a few warriors had mustaches. But as you said - no beards.
Only the king seems to have a beard from what I viewed, a few warriors had mustaches. But as you said - no beards.
This is a PL-dream, I have had some years ago. I have seen me as a young viking chief, blond, tall and with the impression of a groomed appearance. It seemed to be summer, all trees were lovely green and there was a wonderful and rich carved wagon made of bright wood which was a grave good for my funeral
Skarphedinn
Member
Thank you for the tapestry, I could enjoy the story from the beginning, and even the latin text was quite easy to make out.
A question to you, Mara: Once this viking chief was young and in good conditions, why did he need a wagon for his own funeral? Was he wounded or he prepared for a battle? The Danish archeologist, Else Roesdahl wrote in her book Vikingerne (The Vikings), that vast majority of people who grew up could expect a relatively long life - compared to the later mediaeval findings. She based this research upon archeological excavations done in Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Iceland and even in Greenland.
Maybe we'll be able to get more accurate information on the exact age and place, then exclude all the possible rational explanations, giving place to the mystical ones.
Well, this is a bit off topic, but today is the Icelandic Independence Day
Skarphedinn
A question to you, Mara: Once this viking chief was young and in good conditions, why did he need a wagon for his own funeral? Was he wounded or he prepared for a battle? The Danish archeologist, Else Roesdahl wrote in her book Vikingerne (The Vikings), that vast majority of people who grew up could expect a relatively long life - compared to the later mediaeval findings. She based this research upon archeological excavations done in Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Iceland and even in Greenland.
Maybe we'll be able to get more accurate information on the exact age and place, then exclude all the possible rational explanations, giving place to the mystical ones.
Well, this is a bit off topic, but today is the Icelandic Independence Day
Skarphedinn
This wagon was made/used as a grave good- maybe it was part of a ceremony or a status symbol. I think it was burried with other items in my grave of that life- I died probably young. I have found a similar wagon online - but the carved front of my wagon seemed to be a little bit higher and of course the one I have seen was brand-new.
So far as I recall I felt civilized. I have meditated about this feeling for I remember other lifes were the surroundings and the civilization were definitely crude.
I have a glimpse that I used a quite small and short sword, ramming in the belly of the people we ambushed. For me those were the barbarians. I also have got the feeling that I was tired to raid others for a lousy cooking pot.
So far as I recall I felt civilized. I have meditated about this feeling for I remember other lifes were the surroundings and the civilization were definitely crude.
I have a glimpse that I used a quite small and short sword, ramming in the belly of the people we ambushed. For me those were the barbarians. I also have got the feeling that I was tired to raid others for a lousy cooking pot.
Lila P
Member
Thank you Skarphedinn, for this information. :thumbsup: Although bearded and beardless figures may sound unimportant, but this little detail can help me distuingish two separate lives.
When I had the vision of the Norman cavalry, I found out the Bayeux Tapestry quite soon and I have to say that although the figures in the tapestry are presented in a naivistic style, I still could easily recognize one scene from there (the morning of the battle). That´s pretty much what was going on in my vision.
The battle of Hastings is so well documented that in theory it should be possible to trace who I was back then.
When I had the vision of the Norman cavalry, I found out the Bayeux Tapestry quite soon and I have to say that although the figures in the tapestry are presented in a naivistic style, I still could easily recognize one scene from there (the morning of the battle). That´s pretty much what was going on in my vision.
The battle of Hastings is so well documented that in theory it should be possible to trace who I was back then.
Skarphedinn
Member
Methodology of interpretation of dreams
I have read these basic information you have given us on Oseberg findings, I have had a very little knowledge of before.
And the dream itself must have been very inspiring. As it is great fun to decode symbolic message of dreams, would you be so kind to give us circumstances of dreaming, like the more or less exact date (year at least), the place you were at that moment, things you were dealing with, previous knowledge about vikings, historical interests and things like that.
I start interpreting dreams with finding origins of pictures, happenings and symbols as it is advised in Freud's Träumdeutung (Interpretation of dreams), and I am usually able to trace them back to things I had been going through not only this life, but the very near past. For example I had a dream where I remembered concrete name of a person, I tried to get back to its origins, and a few weeks later I found out it came from a name of a place which I read in a saga I had been reading just before the dream.
If I found these vital information, I continue interpretation with the Jungian method, searching for symbols and happenings analogous to mythological stories, and can be a help out of the current problem I am facing with.
As a history-lover no wonder I often have dreams in historical context, but they are usually connected with places and periods I am currently involved in, and they almost always contain some surrealistic element.
I am curious what makes one suspicious about a dream that it is a hidden memory, but until very recently I haven't even suppose dream can carry utilisable information about pre-existence as I regarded it as a privilege of visions (like for example what Saint Theresa had, although it was not past life related) or other kinds of mystical experience.
Hopefully we made another step towards the solution.
Skarphedinn
Post Scriptum: I have to correct the time of Njal's saga, which took place in the 10/11 centuries instead of 9-10.
I have read these basic information you have given us on Oseberg findings, I have had a very little knowledge of before.
And the dream itself must have been very inspiring. As it is great fun to decode symbolic message of dreams, would you be so kind to give us circumstances of dreaming, like the more or less exact date (year at least), the place you were at that moment, things you were dealing with, previous knowledge about vikings, historical interests and things like that.
I start interpreting dreams with finding origins of pictures, happenings and symbols as it is advised in Freud's Träumdeutung (Interpretation of dreams), and I am usually able to trace them back to things I had been going through not only this life, but the very near past. For example I had a dream where I remembered concrete name of a person, I tried to get back to its origins, and a few weeks later I found out it came from a name of a place which I read in a saga I had been reading just before the dream.
If I found these vital information, I continue interpretation with the Jungian method, searching for symbols and happenings analogous to mythological stories, and can be a help out of the current problem I am facing with.
As a history-lover no wonder I often have dreams in historical context, but they are usually connected with places and periods I am currently involved in, and they almost always contain some surrealistic element.
I am curious what makes one suspicious about a dream that it is a hidden memory, but until very recently I haven't even suppose dream can carry utilisable information about pre-existence as I regarded it as a privilege of visions (like for example what Saint Theresa had, although it was not past life related) or other kinds of mystical experience.
Hopefully we made another step towards the solution.
Skarphedinn
Post Scriptum: I have to correct the time of Njal's saga, which took place in the 10/11 centuries instead of 9-10.
Skarphedinn
Member
This time it was my fault, now I suggest we should discuss topics more into methodology in a new thread, and save this one for purely viking and scandinavian history related opinions.
Skarphedinn
Skarphedinn
tanguerra
Moderator Emeritus
Hi Mara,
What do you mean by this: "This wagon was made/used as a grave good - maybe it was part of a ceremony or a status symbol."
Do you mean they buried you in the wagon when you died? The wagon was used as a coffin? That seems a bit impractical to me. How did that work?
Very interesting if you have any more information on that life. Sounds like you do.
What do you mean by this: "This wagon was made/used as a grave good - maybe it was part of a ceremony or a status symbol."
Do you mean they buried you in the wagon when you died? The wagon was used as a coffin? That seems a bit impractical to me. How did that work?
Very interesting if you have any more information on that life. Sounds like you do.
Skarphedinn
Member
Ave Tanguerra!
Yes, it was the waggons function, as you can read in the above given post by Mara - I mean the Oseberg finding in Norway (see the link).
Else Roesdahl describes such grave findings as the one in Oseberg or Gokstad, for folk were buried with their things and valuables. People of high degree were buried in ships or together with horses, and it was rather more usual for women to put a waggon into the grave symbolising the travel of soul into the realm of Hel, death's goddess. Sounds funny, but true.
These carts were made especially for this purpose, as she came to this conclusion by the not functional build-up of the grave attachment.
Skarphedinn
Yes, it was the waggons function, as you can read in the above given post by Mara - I mean the Oseberg finding in Norway (see the link).
Else Roesdahl describes such grave findings as the one in Oseberg or Gokstad, for folk were buried with their things and valuables. People of high degree were buried in ships or together with horses, and it was rather more usual for women to put a waggon into the grave symbolising the travel of soul into the realm of Hel, death's goddess. Sounds funny, but true.
These carts were made especially for this purpose, as she came to this conclusion by the not functional build-up of the grave attachment.
Skarphedinn
Sorry, I have no more clear information about it. Perhaps I will get some- I try so. I am very sceptical about the other things which pop up in my mind about that life so I will not post them- perhaps they are mixed with some roman memories ore simple rubbish :tongue: .
I have got a special sort of PL dreams, they are very short, sometimes somebody explains something (telepathic) and they are connected with a special feeling/knowing that (for me) there is no doubt about their validity. Sometimes I have a sort of visions or extended state of consciousness with PL-memories in which I have the same feeling. But I think this is another thread and me ignorant German don´t know how to start it .
I have got a special sort of PL dreams, they are very short, sometimes somebody explains something (telepathic) and they are connected with a special feeling/knowing that (for me) there is no doubt about their validity. Sometimes I have a sort of visions or extended state of consciousness with PL-memories in which I have the same feeling. But I think this is another thread and
me ignorant German don´t know how to start it .