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What is the truth about reincarnation?

BriarRose said:
To me, the soul is "all". I change my body the way I do a dress, or a pair of shoes. Once it becomes outdated, worn, or loses it's utility, it is "recycled". What set you off on your journey of soul exploration, John Tat?
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Hi


What set me on my journey of soul development? I don't really know. that may sound strange but it is the truth. I was the same as the majority of others who take no interest in reincarnation. From time to time I would see something on TV or read something about reincarnation, but that's as far as my interest ever went. Then out of the blue I got this understanding


The first time I noticed what had happened was, I was at a social function talking to a husband and wife They started talking about reincarnation, they were believers. As they were explaining it to me I was saying to myself That's right, no that's wrong, that maybe right, how wrong is that, and so on I of course said nothing to them. Afterwards I said to myself what in the hell was that. Several weeks later I was talking to a Christian minister. Because I was very curious about what happened last time I asked him about reincarnation. Off he went giving the full Christian views about reincarnation. At first I wished I had never asked. Then I began asking him questions and also giving my opinions In the end he was totally confused and told me there was nothing he could do for me and I was definitely going to hell, which I didn't think was very Christian of him at all. So if there was a point in time when I began to take what was happening to me seriously that was it


On another post you asked if I had any previous life memories


No I don't. but I'm very aware and connected to my pure identity and awareness since I began to take things seriously
 
DreamAuthor said:
I think you misinterpret what I'm saying. Try reading my post on my past life memory. Also, I'm not a science ideologue who hasn't an open mind about these concepts. I agree with what you are saying as well, but I'm also very familiar with brain chemistry and how it affects the mind, personality and choices.
Take the twins example. Different personalities naturally, but if you introduce narcotics or a brain injury, you have yet another change which wasn't there at birth. Right?
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I'm saying brain chemistry can explain some of the human experience, but by no means all of it, so I think we are largely in agreement? Yes, there are chemicals which can be ingested that impact the functioning of the mind and the emotions.


There are injuries to the brain that effect memory, but this does not explain everything about how memories are kept and it doesn't explain why people can remember past experiences and feel past emotions, even though they have a new 'brain'. So, there must be something going on separately or additionally to what goes on with the physical brain.


It stands to reason as I see it. We understand a lot more about the brain (and the rest of the body) than we did 100 years ago, but I'm sure there is still a lot to discover.
 
John Tat, you did bring a smile, with your story about the Christian minister. :) Being told you are going straight to Hell pretty much puts an end to the debate! Since you became aware of your "pure identity and awareness" when you began your exploration of reincarnation, it has brought you personal benefits. Have you any theories about why you were given this understanding, and what you are meant to do with it? Was the purpose to enlighten others, or self-enlightenment? Would you welcome past life memories if you had them?
 
Briar Rose


What has happened to me continues to happen, It is not all that easy. My understanding are so different. I feel no real obligation to share them. I'm more interest in peoples opinions.


I have barely scratched the surface on this forum with my understandings. Most of the time I get big stop signs not to talk about the majority of them, not only here but everywhere else. . I have a very strong and growing connection to my pure identity and awareness. He is my connection to Billy and the structures. As I have said before everything goes back and forth through him. I'm not aware of any personnel benefits, not in a physical sense anyway. It's made physical life a lot harder for me. I know what I'm required to do with these understandings which is between me and my pure identity and awareness, I will do with them what the structures want me to do with them. That's not an evasive answer. That's how it is.


It is important to know the structures are real There is no god so there must be and is something in place to maintain order with the birth, dying and reincarnation process's. They are the structures.
 
Do the stop signs come from people you encounter, or from the "inner structures"? All of us have "inner structures". How do you know that they are not from God, or some representative of his? Something, or someone, made order from chaos, and put the "structure" in place. Isn't it the conscience that puts up stop signs that we either obey, or not? Conscience is formed by the teachings of parents, religion, society, and yes - the soul. I'm sorry your task is difficult. Most people find things that are worthwhile to be difficult, and many, like you, persevere.
 
Hello John Tat, and a belated welcome to the forum. I've been reading your thread here with interest. You pose some interesting thoughts and ideas, and the responses from our members have been equally interesting. Well done--all of you!


I would only add that your journey is uniquely yours. And your tenacity and perseverance in search of the "truth" will take you in many directions; you should explore with courage and daring discernment! My only advice is keep your mind open... open to possibility, open to others, open to yourself. Casting "certainty" is a sure way of closing a door to understanding. Better to ask questions... always keeping doors open.


Blessings to you and the things you discover...


Tman
 
John Tat said:
...It is important to know the structures are real There is no god so there must be and is something in place to maintain order with the birth, dying and reincarnation process's. They are the structures.
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Hi John,


Would you like to explain what you mean by these 'structures'? What are you getting at here? Some people talk about communicating with spirit guides and 'masters' and the like. I have no experience of this myself, but I have no reason to doubt those who do. Could this be what you are experiencing perhaps?


Personally I'm not a great subscriber to anything or anyone in particular being 'in charge' of things, but there are others of different opinions. I'm more of the view that the only 'structures' that rule the universe are the physical laws such as - gravity, time, space and so on ('karma' perhaps) - and everything else that goes on is 'more or less' randomised and chaotic but with its own rhythm and pattern of course - like the way fish swim in the sea or birds flock in the sky ...
 
Hi Tangurra


The structures are in place to keep order of the birth, dying and reincarnation process's You can imagine if there was no order the chaos that would create. If the structures were not there keeping order there would be total chaos on earth
 
Briar Rose


The stop signs I believe come from the structures. My understanding is, the structures that control the birth, dying and reincarnation process's are not within us. Your question on who controls them is interesting. I had never given that any thought. I asked my pure self this morning


I had many things swirling around in my head so it was not a good connection. Then all the way home from work the following thought enter my brain. I know when it comes from my pure self because it often happens when I'm not thinking about any of this. In fact I was thinking about how annoyed I got today at work, just because I had to work. So this was the thought. The original souls who came from physical form put them in place and also put the mechanisms in place that control the structures. This is the first time I have ever been given any understanding about these original souls. I have no more idea who or what the original souls were than you probably do. If you or anyone else does know anything about them I would be very interested to know about them.


If they did come from physical form then they would have no connection to a perceived god


The following I believe is important


Do we live within our perceived reality because that is the environment we feel most comfortable in?


As you can imagine my perceived reality no longer exists Absolute reality is vast and far reaching and impossible to comprehend.


Who and what are you? does anyone really know especially yourself?


If you cannot answer that question about yourself then how can you possibly believe you are a reincarnation of someone else?


Unless you are a reincarnation of yourself, your pure self, then reincarnation makes no sense.
 
Tinkerman said:
Hello John Tat, and a belated welcome to the forum. I've been reading your thread here with interest. You pose some interesting thoughts and ideas, and the responses from our members have been equally interesting. Well done--all of you!
I would only add that your journey is uniquely yours. And your tenacity and perseverance in search of the "truth" will take you in many directions; you should explore with courage and daring discernment! My only advice is keep your mind open... open to possibility, open to others, open to yourself. Casting "certainty" is a sure way of closing a door to understanding. Better to ask questions... always keeping doors open.


Blessings to you and the things you discover...


Tman
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Thank you for the welcome and advise. I will always do my best keep an open mind. I have never had a previous life memory. Biar Rose asked me would I welcome one. Of course I would If you believed as I do that reincarnation must be a reincarnation of yourself your pure self and not you of someone else, then any previous life memories would be as memory of myself. If I had a previous life memory of someone else then everything would changer for me
 
John Tat said:
If you believed as I do that reincarnation must be a reincarnation of yourself your pure self and not you of someone else, then any previous life memories would be as memory of myself. If I had a previous life memory of someone else then everything would changer for me
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"Everyone else" I have ever been is me in another body...the memories I carry of those other lifetimes were subject to those other eras and societies, families and events. How does this fit your schematic?


I also believe fact is a product of perspective...
 
John, the Christian Bible, and I presume the Torah, speak about the Spirit of God moving on the water. There is an implication that "He" is with other souls. I refer you to Genesis, verse 26, "Let Us make man in our image." Are these the original souls to which you refer? Where did all the other souls originate? I find Holy Books often contain hints of the truth, or sometimes distortions of it. As Usetawuz said, we believe that we have always been one soul, inhabiting different bodies. In essence, we are all "pure" souls - at least as pure as every other soul. I find the idea of moral superiority inherent in your theory somewhat discomfiting. Like you, I only have theories and feelings about the Divine, and Truth, but I know my opinions carry no moral authority.
 
In my experience, I am taught only what I permit myself to believe/accept. This gives "the structures" an interesting challenge when they're trying to open my mind to new information.


They often creatively cobble together concepts out of what I already know or understand and create a mock-up of the greater truth to expand my awareness. Part of this process is the "yes, this is right" and "no, that's not even close!" feelings I get when I read or interact with the ideas others share. Sometimes "the structures" take fragments of one belief or another and bring them side-by-side so I can bridge a new path of possibility from the two.


My internal growth is based on experiment and contrast, destroying old support structures as I out-grow portions and then replace them with new and "more stable" ideas, in constant transition forward. The perspectives I find in others' experiences always play a significant part in this process, and I've enjoyed bashing my construct against each new challenge to see what breaks and what is exposed or seeded from the new idea.


I don't know if this physical avatar is capable of actually processing the "way things really are" from the perspective of my original soul, so my conscious awareness is not something I want to claim as "the only way" because ... well, "only one way" is so anti-creative, really. I observe that everything has variety. (For example: Even two of the same type of plant will have different proportions, number of flowers, leaf growth, and even colors, etc. without anyone trying to make them different.)


I find your terms confusing, John, but it's clear that you have found that the associations you combine with the more common terminology would have hampered your progress up to now. I love that you've created your own vocabulary to process what you are learning in a new way, and I hope you're enjoying the discussion as much as I've enjoyed reading it.
 
usetawuz said:
"Everyone else" I have ever been is me in another body...the memories I carry of those other lifetimes were subject to those other eras and societies, families and events. How does this fit your schematic?
I also believe fact is a product of perspective...
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Hi uestawuz


That is very close to what I believe, that reincarnation the same as ever thing else must more forwards. By having a continuing reincarnation of yourself you are not looking backwards and saying this is who I once was, you are always looking forwards and saying this is who I am now. That is very different to what many believe. What you were in your previous physical lives such as a doctor, teacher, factory worker has no relevance to your current life or to your soul. Your soul was never was any of those physical identities either Those physical identities died with there physical bodies. Most look for previous physical identities, You believe it is your reincarnating soul and I believe it is a reincarnating pure identity that reincarnates. I also have a soul that that reincarnates along with a pure identity and awareness. The are sort of partners and there previous physical lives the same as yours have no relevance to anything. They are mighty close beliefs. It is you growing and expanding not some physical fisherman fishing on the river Nile. A physical body and identity you once occupied. That identity only lived once then he died never to return. Your returned to live again In one way the sceptics are right. It is rather complicated why I believe a pure identity and awareness the pure you everything about you that is not physical must also reincarnate along with its soul. I understand why it happens but to find the correct words is extremely difficult for me
 
Mere Dreamer


I find what you say great . everything is expressed in a way I never seen before and I can tell what you say comes from deep inside you from the real you. If you believed what I believed you would see what I see and that is the pure you everything about that is not physical is far more dominate in you than most. I would think the pure you has a very big say in your day to day life. Imagine if that pure you reincarnated with you soul what you would be like in 300 years time. That is nothing only around four incarnations. You would really be something
 
LOL That's kind of you, John. I hope so.


It would be something to see, wouldn't it? I'd love to meet someone in complete alignment with their pure self. It would be reassuring to see it's possible.
 
Hi Mere Dreamer


The following is based on my understandings


You talked about complete alignment. That's a much better way of putting it. I called it becoming compatible. Assume what I'm about to say is right.


As you know your pure self is separate from the physical identity. The physical identity that must become aligned with the pure self will never develop the abilities to do that. The pure self must have the abilities to educate the physical brain on how to do that. The same as the physical identity the pure self cannot develop those abilities in one incarnation. That's why it never happens. From this point on this is where my beliefs clash with traditional beliefs. There are very rare pure self's that are worthy of continuing on and allowed to develop the skills required. It is much the same thing as only the strongest survive in the wild. I have no doubt yours is one of those. As I have said before I have no real idea how the selection process works that would allow your pure self to reincarnate with your soul I only went to tenth grade at school and find it very difficult to put my complex understandings into words. I do the best I can. For reincarnation to benefit mankind and that is its purpose, there must be a souls and a pure identities, aligned with a physical body. Mankind can make no real progress without physical involvement. Worthy pure self's are rare precious and essential to this process


If I were you every day I would respectfully ask my soul if he considered my pure self worthy to allow my pure self to reincarnate with him
 
How can previous lives have no relevance to the life we live today? Previous lives are what help us grow as souls - hence why some people seem to just 'know' things and others don't. They're not just relevant, but essential to our continual growth. I'm also not sure how you can say there is no God with absolute certainty. How do you know this?
 
John Tat said:
... There are very rare pure self's that are worthy of continuing on and allowed to develop the skills required. It is much the same thing as only the strongest survive in the wild...
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This is not how it works John. I know you are working out some ideas that you have come up with, but according to everything I have read (which is a lot, and there is more information around about this than you may think) everyone reincarnates. Some believe they eventually 'stop' when they become 'masters'. The Buddhists talk about moving to the next 'level' of existence (of which there are many). Some decide to stay behind and help others, these are called 'Bodisatvas' by the Buddhists, guides, angles, guardians... that kind of thing ... by the 'New Agers'. I'm sure they are talking about the same thing, but using different words to describe it. But everyone pretty much reincarnates. It is not the exception. It is the norm. The exception is to 'ascend' this plain of existence, although I guess eventually everyone does that too (or pretty much everyone).

...For reincarnation to benefit mankind and that is its purpose, there must be a souls and a pure identities, aligned with a physical body. Mankind can make no real progress without physical involvement. Worthy pure self's are rare precious and essential to this process...
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Reincarnation 'might' have a purpose. Many people believe this. I sometimes have my doubts. I just think it 'happens' and make no judgement about why or what for.


'Mankind' is always making progress, although it's messy. Perhaps if they let 'womankind' make more of the decisions, we'd be moving along faster? :)


But, jokes aside, people are always in the process of working things out, making things better, learning from trial and error along the way. Sometimes we go backwards a bit - oh well. There is no reason to extrapolate some kind of governing body micro-managing all this, any more than we need to conjecture a 'governing body' working out how trees will grow or birds will fly. These things are 'governed' by grand physical laws like gravity and time and so on, but not individually managed by 'entities' in my view.


As I said above, there are beliefs that we are 'assisted' from the higher plain by guides / Boddisatvas. I've heard enough people talk about their experiences with these to believe that it happens. But, I don't see it like puppet masters, more like 'advisors' who give us a little help now and then when asked.
 
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