What Jesus said about children who -- do not forget

[CrowEyes]

Hi Deborah Yes, he speaks also of discussing his thoughts with Braden. They seem to be well-acquainted from what I understood.

I agree with you about the "new race" thought, and he brings it across in that manner maybe for others to better understand that these are personas like we have not yet before been accustomed to or acquainted with. That's how I looked at it, although, I completely understand what you are saying. I think in his excitement, he brought it forth this way. It was a telephone conversation, and I feel certain if he had been writing all of this, he would have worded that part differently.

And, I liked what you said about the "Christ consciousness". This I have read before, perhaps Braden's book (?), I don't recall where, maybe one of Moen's. And for me, it's something that turns on a light for me, you know.

Interesting, I think, very interesting.

 

[sensitive soul]

Deborah- Just a question,

How can a child be born without ever commiting a sin ever in a past life. I mean, Everyone sins no matter if it is killing another or lieing to a parent. Please explain.

Sensitive soul

 

[deborah]

Hi Sensitive Soul,

The translation says - What will happen to a person who has committed no sin, but has done good persistently, yet has not found the mysteries?

To me, it does not say the person has NEVER committed a sin, it suggests that a person who has done good persistently, possible for several life times and has not found the mysteries...then they will not drink from the cup of forgetfulness.

 

[Jami]

Hello Deborah,
Is this from the Bible? If so what book?
JAMI

 

[deborah]

Hi Jami,

In the Pistis Sophia, an important collection of Gnostic manuscripts -- many translations are offered from the The Nag Hammadi Library.

 

[Jonathan]

This thread has been interesting. Just wanted to add a couple thoughts regarding this age being a time of change. I have been a follower of Meher Baba for many years and He has stated on numerous occasions that this time is indeed a special period in history. Just as mankind moved from the age of Instinct into the age the Intellect, so too in this time period we are moving into the age of Intuition.

It may be that children have always remembered their previous lives but we just don't have a "record" of it, no cultural memory of it, or it may be that more children remember their former lives because an inner shift is taking place and they are simply more in tune with their intuitive knowledge. I don't know, but there certainly seems to be a spiritual awakening taking place.

 

[deborah]

Welcome to the forum Jonathan.

I read your profile - and wanted to say - good luck with your endeavors regarding ending hunger.

 

[terry67]

When people try to use Jesus as a fear factor instead of learning from his lessons, they miss the point of his teachings. This is my first time in the forum and I love it all ready!

Terry

 

[Marg]

I suspect that children have always remembered their past lives, and many cultures honored that, but wars and politics have altered what values get handed down.

 

[deborah]

Pistis Sophia

For those that are not familiar with the Pistis Sophia -it consists of three books of Jesus' discourses to his disciples who are present with him on the Mount of Olives and are part of the Nag Hammadi Library.

 

[deborah]

I have been meaning to share this. Although the Angel Scroll has not been validated - the teachings within it are fascinating. Here is one on reincarnation and the child.

“And the seed that is joined from the two seeds is not like a clean slate. It is written inside and outside and it has within knowledge and understanding before its creation and before its creation in the womb. And the beginning of the child is not in the birth or in conception nor is its end in death." The Angel Scroll

 

[AuroraBelle22]

I just finished reading "Return From Heaven", and in it there's a story of a little girl who tells her mother in a past life that she (the girl) murdered her present mother in a past life. That is obviously a huge sin - how come the girl remembers then? Could it be that that was the only really big mistake her soul made, and otherwise she's done good, and that's why she remembers?

 

[deborah]

I think that what the passage said --the original post in this thread - recorded by someone a long time ago-- is not a rule. It is just another possibility.

I know why I remember so much confused2 - but I cannot speak for others.

 

[Crissy2]

I just finished reading "Return From Heaven", and in it there's a story of a little girl who tells her mother in a past life that she (the girl) murdered her present mother in a past life. That is obviously a huge sin - how come the girl remembers then? Could it be that that was the only really big mistake her soul made, and otherwise she's done good, and that's why she remembers?

I'm sure all we can really do is speculate and then there are the others that were given a gift to answer some of our questions. It is really fascinating though, the amount of possibilities available out there.

 

[Curtis]

Any thoughts out there regarding this threads premise?

As you probably realize, the premise of the following:

In other words, children who are born 'remembering' have committed no sin. Remembering is intended to be a gift.

is very much in line with many accounts of children recalling spontaneously recalling past lives. That is, they often recall a past life where they were killed while still fairly young.

Depending upon religious background, there are those who believe that children cannot actually sin until reaching some "age of accountability" whatever that age may be. Of course this flies in the face of "original sin" but that's another story. If it is true that a child cannot actually sin, and if the child's life is cut short either by a traumatic death or by disease, then the next life for this child might be accompanied by recollection of the prior event.

This does indeed seem to happen. There have even been accounts right here on this forum where children relate to having died before while they were still children (shot, drowned, lost in the wild, etc.). This theme crops up over an over. It also is often related to various fears (phobias) regarding loud noises (as with Carol's son), water, heights, claustrophobia, and even nightmares/night-terrors that have no known cause.

So, perhaps, remembering is a gift that allows us to get past a certain problem the "next time around". It also seems that after having gotten past the troublesome milestone, the memory is lost once it no longer serves a useful purpose.

Curtis
Phoenix, Arizona

 

[tanguerra]

I seriously doubt that sin has anything whatsoever to do with the ability to recall past lives. I heartily dislike the whole dogma of sin in any case. I find it very negative and destructive. Others may believe whatever they please.

Some people remember, some do not. I don't pretend to know what the mechanism or the reasons for it are. Children's little minds are probably a bit less cluttered with stuff from their present life, and they have more leisure time than adults let's face it, so perhaps they have an easier time remembering. Also, as they are more recently arrived, perhaps things are somewhat fresher in their minds?

I remembered things since childhood (I remember doing so) and I continue to. I don't know why though! I like it and I think it's useful, but I don't know the reason if there is one.

 

[deborah]

Hi Tanguerra,

I am curious - do you have children? If you do - do they remember past lives?

Sin is a religious term - that I don't care for either. I think earlier in the thread we discuss the possibilities regarding negativity, and how consciousness creates.

If we replace the word sin with negative thoughts/consciousness it then implies imbalance and lack clarity.

My intention for posting this thread 6 years ago -- was to help parents whose children remember past lives find some comfort in an ancient text written long ago. Personally I prefer to approach religion with a sense of Ecumenism.

 

[tanguerra]

Hi Deborah.

Yes, I have two children - both in their early twenties. Neither of them have ever said anything about remembering past lives or anything which might suggest any memories of that nature.

I have only spoken about it recently with my daughter, who is very interested in it all and wishes she could remember things but does not. She works in child care, as I have mentioned elsewhere, and there is one child who is often talking about 'when I was big' 'when I was a mummy' etc. My daughter did not know what to make of that before we had our chat but now it makes a lot more sense to her and she thinks it is all very 'cool'.

I have not discussed it with my son - not something I think he would really be that interested in at this stage in his life in my view - not being related to young ladies, rock and roll or any other boyish pursuits of that nature. Perhaps one day when he is older.

I agree with you on the word 'sin'. Perhaps 'negativity' is a better word, although it is perhaps a bit vague and hard to define exactly. Of course society's view of what is right and wrong and what is and is not a sin tends to change over the centuries as well, so that can also be a bit vague and hard to pin down!

I certainly agree with you that children having past life memories is nothing to be afraid of and should be treated as though it were like any other skill, talent or interest the child might express - with encouragement, care and understanding. I personally think it is just a natural process and really don't ascribe any particular religious connotations to it one way or the other - except of course, depending on how you define 'religion'. Life itself is sacred and wonderful. Everything and everyone is divine at one level in my view regardless of what one's favourite dogma or creed might be.

I know when I was little and remembered things I didn't really know what it was but I kept it very much to myself. I am not sure how my parents might have reacted, but instinctively I just felt it was something I should not mention. I did discuss it with my mother fairly recently, but she found it all a bit frightening and did not like the idea. She expressed a fear that such things were considered to be 'work of the devil once upon a time' and in general should be shunned in case they would send one crazy or similar (having been brought up in a very religious household herself) so perhaps my instincts were correct!

 

[tanguerra]

Yes Axel

It is interesting to compare and contrast the different religious beliefs held by the various peoples of the world, but I certainly do not hold any above the others in terms of who is intrinsically right and who is intrinsically wrong. In my view such discussions are not worthwhile and have in fact been the source of much disharmony in the world while contributing little to general knowledge or enlightenment. I feel they are simple exercises in ego and power.

All religions have their merits and their weaknesses. Such discussions may be of interest to some people, but we have deeper and more fascinating topics to discuss here I believe. I find all the world's religions have points of interest of course. It is interesting that almost all religions have some beliefs relating to reincarnation though. It is, after all, a universal experience, not one related to a particular creed as Deborah says.

 

[Axel]

Hi dear Tanguerra

I just need to paste what Carol Bowman writes in her homepage (no-one can miss it):

"I'm Carol Bowman, past life therapist and researcher. To me, reincarnation is not an abstract religious concept or a philosophy, but a natural phenomenon.Understanding the connection between past lives and present reality leads to profound personal benefits, both spiritual and practical."

Well, she's said it all I 100% agree with her view here.

Kind regards,
Axel

 

[Amy]

Although the Angel Scroll has not been validated - the teachings within it are fascinating. Here is one on reincarnation and the child.

Deborah, where can I find this Angel Scroll. I'd like to read it.

This thread is wonderful. :thumbsup:

 

[deborah]

I am not sure Amy. The quote I provided here was from a website that was published in 1999. The link is on my old computer - long gone. I don't think the whole thing has ever been made public and there was question about the validity of it. But nothing was ever confirmed or debunked that I am aware of. I really enjoyed that particular quote as well.

If anyone finds information regarding the Angel Scroll - please let us know. I do remember it was Gregg Braden who was talking about it years ago. A University of antiquities was doing the research. But nothing else that I can recall beyond that.

 

[Amy]

Deborah I found this website:

http://bibeltemplet.net/enoch-aramaic.html

 

[deborah]

Hi Amy,

Thank you. That is the website I had seen earlier. It is dated 1999. You had another link in your post that you must have edited out. I thought it was an excellent resource. :thumbsup:

 

[Phoenix]

the effects of the waters of forgetfulness


I somehow missed this thread, and it apparently got revived a few times along the way. Interesting topic, particularly Jesus using a very pagan metaphor.

I thought it was very interesting that Plato -BEFORE Jesus, seemed to also know of the waters of forgetfulness...400 years before in fact.


I wonder if Plato knew why - and I wonder if Plato and Jesus agree!!!!!!!!! I think Jesus gave a very plausible answer!

What I found interesting is that Jesus was using the same concept for reincarnation as the Greeks did. The expression 'waters of forgetfulness' is a reference to the pagan River Lethe that ran through Hades (the Underworld or afterlife).


from wikipdedia "River Lethe"

Some ancient Greeks believed that souls were made to drink from the river before being reincarnated, so they would not remember their past lives.

I find it interesting that many people still believe that we are not supposed to remember our past lives unless we are somebody like the Dalai Lama.


With so many people reporting past life memories on forums like CPL, it's clear that people are remembering. And, it's also clear that they've been remembering in other cultures for far longer.

A few mystery religions taught the existence of another river, the Mnemosyne; those who drank from the Mnemosyne would remember everything and attain omniscience. Initiates were taught that they would receive a choice of rivers to drink from after death, and to drink from Mnemosyne instead of Lethe.

That definitely fits more in line with the data available to us. That we choose whether or not to remember. I know that at 4 years I expected to be able to recall my past life memories as easily as I remember my current life memories. I was really annoyed that I couldn't.


Back to the original post...

What will happen to a person who has committed no sin, but has done good persistently, yet has not found the mysteries?
Jesus replies;Such a person before birth, does not drink of the waters of forgetfulness. He receives rather a cup filled with thoughts of wisdom, and soberness in it. He is reborn into a body which can neither sleep nor forget because of the cup of soberness which has been handed to it.


In other words, children who are born 'remembering' have committed no sin. Remembering is intended to be a gift. The gift to "see" so they can search for the Great Mysteries that Jesus so eloquently spoke of.

So, either the person drinks of the waters of forgetfulness (the River Lethe) or they drink from the cup of wisdom and soberness which causes them to be reborn into a body that will not sleep nor forget (the River Mnemosyne).


I'm not entirely surprised as there is a reference to Hades (the pagan Underworld/afterlife) in the Book of Revelations. And nobody has ever been able to answer why that is. That particular concept does not exist in Judaism (Jesus' religion), it's straight out of Greco-Roman mythology.


I think we'd all notice if someone drank from that cup of of wisdom and soberness. Past life recall isn't that uncommon. Human beings can't survive without sleep. Someone who was neither able to sleep nor forget would be a very unsual human being.


Phoenix

 

[Curtis]

In it Jesus instructs the disciples as to how serious personal actions against others have repercussions in an ensuing life. But John asks a VERY interesting question -


What will happen to a person who has committed no sin, but has done good persistently, yet has not found the mysteries?


Jesus replies;Such a person before birth, does not drink of the waters of forgetfulness. He receives rather a cup filled with thoughts of wisdom, and soberness in it. He is reborn into a body which can neither sleep nor forget because of the cup of soberness which has been handed to it.

I've been trying to find the passage above in an online searchable Pistis Sophia. I'm not having any luck. I've found many references to both the waters or cup of forgetfulness and the cup of wisdom, but not this particular passage. I'd really like to read this in context. Can you point me to the reference?


Curtis


Phoenix, Arizona

 

[deborah]

Hi Curtis,


I will have to search back in my records. I originally posted this thread in 2001 - long before being careful to give a resource for the content. It could also be that my quote and translation is different than the one you are looking at. Different translations can often offer - different points of view.


It may be a week or two...classes and finals come first. :cool Remind me mid Dec. if I forget. ;O)

 

[deborah]

Anyone else know where to find an on line version? I forgot to look and have not had time recently. Will do this weekend if no one else can.

I've been trying to find the passage above in an online searchable Pistis Sophia. I'm not having any luck.

 

[ChrisR]

Hi, is this what you were looking for? Chapter 147/148:

"Thereafter cometh Yaluham, the receiver of Sabaōth, the Adamas, who giveth the cup of forgetfulness unto the souls, and he bringeth the water of forgetfulness and handeth it to the soul; [and it drinketh it] and forgetteth all things and all the regions to which it had gone.
Of the cup of wisdom."Thereafter there cometh a receiver of the little Sabaōth, the Good, him of the Midst. He himself bringeth a cup filled with thoughts and wisdom, and soberness is in it; [and] he handeth it to the soul. And they cast it into a body which can neither sleep nor forget because of the cup of soberness which hath been handed unto it; but |389. it will whip its heart persistently to question about the mysteries of the Light until it find them, through the decision of the Virgin of Light, and inherit the Light for ever." ~ Pistis Sophia: Chapter 147

 

[Curtis]

That certainly appears to at least approximate what was said in more modern english. I'm definitely struggling with the archaic wording, and I don't see what it is that leads to someone drinking from which cup.


Curtis


Phoenix, Arizona