A Question about karma...

[Kristopher]

I have been wondering about how karma works when incarnating here on earth. If someone had carried out an evil act towards another person and for their karma they had to experience the same treatment as they put on that person, what would happen to the person that carried out the acts on the person that was experiencing their own karma? Would they then be making karma for themself even though it was a planned event? The only possibility that I could think of is that someone has volunteered for this, causing them no karma once they die. Sorry if that was confusing :laugh: I hope you know what I am trying to say. :thumbsup:

 

[Green26]

Karma as you have described it here does not exist IMO. There is no cosmic tally board of good and bad deeds of every single soul to be balanced out through reincarnation. Good and bad are subjective terms anyway, vary considerably from culture to culture and have very little, if any meaning beyond the human mind.


Why would committing an evil act against someone for the sake of their karma, be seen as karma free, while anybody else doing the same act be considered a sin? Schwartz posited this idea in "Your Soul's Plan", but to me it just seems like a hypocritical system with no real point. I think such an idea has it's origins in human minds trying to understand what they can't, rather than in any cosmic truth.


Answer your question?

 

[Kristopher]

So what way do you think karma works? Give me an example.

 

[Green26]

Have you ever considered that karma might not exist at all? Karma doesn't have to come together with a belief in reincarnation.

 

[Kristopher]

I personally believe that karma plays a massive part in reincarnation and soul development.

 

[Green26]

Why do you believe that?

 

[Kristopher]

I think that learning from our mistakes here on earth is really importaint to us. It gives us the chance to experience what we have done wrong and enables us to change/develop. I dont see it as punishment, more of a lesson. Why do you not believe in karma?

 

[Green26]

I don't believe in karma because personal experience has taught me to know better. I got cancer and for a while bought into the idea of it being karma, or a lesson for my soul, until I finally gained the insight of why and how my cancer had come into existence, which was a far cry from any sort of karma or soul lesson, but that's a long story. If I were to use the term karma, I would refer to it as something like the law of attraction, cause and effect, although not entirely the law of attraction either. I most certainly do not believe in any concept of karma as put forward by Hindus, Buddhists, Brian Weiss, Michael Newton etc.


You still haven't stated your source/reason for believing in karma being a part of reincarnation and soul development, BTW.

 

[Kristopher]

My reason is becuase I feel that karma is logical. It makes sense to me that we experience our wrong doings in other life times. Yes, the likes of Newton and Weiss have gave me a bit more of a personal understanding as to how it works, although I still wonder about it sometimes like every other topic. I dont simply mean that if something bad happens to someone its due to karma. I believe that people may pick different challenges by their own choice as well.

 

[Green26]

That's just a limited perspective on wrong doings IMO, wrong doing is more environmental that it is innate, so being on the receiving end of wrong doing because of the circumstances in which you lived a previous life makes no sense. Most wrong doing comes about as a result of not having your needs as a human being met, which should be obvious with all the allegations of pedophilia within the Catholic church that requires their priests to be celibate.


People who don't have their needs met are much more likely to commit suicide, rape someone, steal and so on. Somebody who has all their needs met has no need to steal, become violent etc. Therefore rewarding people who have their needs met for their "good conduct" and punishing people who have not had their needs met because of their "bad conduct" is not in the lease bit logical IMO.

 

[Delonada]

Exactly this.


Here are some facts:


People subject to molestation in childhood are more likely to become child molesters themselves(57% of them according to known statistics).


Nutrition has been shown to affect how the brain develops. Lack of nutrition can actually pre-dispose a person towards an unlawful life.(see talk from Dr. Robert Lustig on youtube called Sugar: The Bitter Truth)


There is a reason we sometimes say "You are so like your father/mother". We emulate our parents to a greater extent than we give credit. This means we even emulate negative behaviour.


People who experience a suicide of another person in their lives are more likely to commit suicide themselves(chain reaction).


A lot of people tend to associate African Americans with crime, but it is not the people that are more prone to violence and crime, but the environment they are given to develop in. This is actually one of the biggest crimes I still see in a developed nation, where an entire populace is basically kept down through social conditioning and social engineering.

 

[Green26]

Delonada, if you are interested in a valid perspective into good and "evil" you might want to watch the start of this Zeitgeist video. It is about how and why we are destroying the planet, but the first 30-40 minutes goes into great details about the things you and I have just mentioned. The video includes experts from a whole range of disciplines, and they all basically say that good and bad is just human misunderstanding.

 

[Delonada]

Long time since I watched Zeitgeist, and despite that I think it is a bit too high on ideology I do agree with them. I agree on how they address epigenetics as epigenetics means a DNA change that happens during a lifetime and is not bound to the original genes.


Many of the diseases and afflictions we experience are due to human stupidity. Very often people have a range of diseases that people will just say "it's genetic, just live with it", but when you look closer you will see that there is something missing. Mercury has for the past hundred years permeated our environment and caused a host of diseases which are then attributed to genes. So instead of getting drugs that cure the mercury from our bodies, we get drugs that treat the symptoms. In fact, the problem of our age is that we are treating symptoms and rarely the disease.


We are currently suffering from deficiency in iodine, potassium, and magnesium, which literally creates a thousand problems, but no one cares as there is no profit in it.


The thing is, humanity will only be able to achieve a higher state in system that could actually sound socialistic/communistic. Take the ideology proposed in Star Trek. It is a highly communistic system as there no salaries. People get what they need and are allowed to pursue advancement in any area they desire. It is idealistic, but it is also a system we should strive for.

 

[Green26]

Given all the studies done on rapists, schizophrenics, suicide victims they referred to, it makes the whole idea of karma highly implausible IMO.


From the video:


So, this brings us to a total impossible juncture which is to try to make sense in perspective science as to what that nature is of human nature. You know, on a certain level the nature of our nature is not to be particularly constrained by our nature. We come up with more social variability than any species out there.


More systems of belief, of styles, of family structures, of ways of raising children. The capacity for variety that we have is extraordinary.


So the myth in our society is that people are competitive by nature and that they are individualistic and that they're selfish.The real reality is quite the opposite. We have certain human needs.


The only way that you can talk about human nature concretely is by recognizing that there are certain human needs.We have a human need for companionship and for close contact,to be loved, to be attached to, to be accepted,to be seen, to be received for who we are.


If those needs are met, we develop into people who are compassionate and cooperative and


who have empathy for other people.


So the opposite, that we often see in our society, is in fact, a distortion of human nature


precisely because so few people have their needs met.


So, yes you can talk about human nature but only in the sense of basic human needs


that are instinctively evoked or I should say, certain human needs that lead to certain traits if they are met


and a different set of traits if they are denied.


So when we recognize the fact that the human organism,


which has a great deal of adaptive flexibility allowing us to survive in many different conditions,


is also rigidly programmed for certain environmental requirements or human needs,a social imperative begins to emerge.Just as our bodies require physical nutrients, the human brain demands positive forms of environmental stimulus at all stages of development, while also needing to be protected from other negative forms of stimulus.


And if things that should happen, do not...or if things that shouldn't happen, do...


it is now apparent that the door can be opened for not only a cascade of mental and physical diseases


but many detrimental human behaviors as well.

 

[Delonada]

Given all the studies done on rapists, schizophrenics, suicide victims they referred to, it makes the whole idea of karma highly implausible IMO.

I agree.


The idea of karma is a human concept much like justice and punishment. We dream of people being punished for their sins and it is actually a part of a sadistic behaviour in people.


This is why I consider myself a spiritual agnostic. I believe in a higher plane/entity, but I can't align to religious beliefs that all tend to focus on condemning and punishment. Take Christianity for example(since I was raised a Christian). In Christianity we are always being threatened of eternal hell and damnation and those who threaten it are usually people who live a privileged life. A person of advantage is trying to tell a person how to live life where the variables are different.


In fact this is one of the most infuriating aspect of religion. Always white old men and women of privilege communicating what is right and wrong and from a station where it is easy to be so "high and mighty".


I would like to add that this is also why I consider faith good, but religion bad.

 

[Truthseeker]

I pretty much agree with this.


What most people think of karma as, a system of punishment, I see in the same category as hell. People seem to have a need to believe that those who we view as "evil" are going to be punished by God. I think we project our own hatred and prejudices onto God. One problem is that so many of the "evildoers" do not believe that they are evil. They believe that what they are doing is justified from their point of view.


I do believe in choices by souls and disfunctional relationships between souls. I think it's very likely that you can see two souls carrying out violent acts at each other life after life. If such a 'karmic debt' had been repaid, then the violence would stop, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The only way the violence stops is if a choice is made to stop, not from a cosmic act of justice.


That's the way I see it.

 

[Nightrain]

For all the very intelligent discussion in this thread, one might very well believe that human beings are nothing more than biological robots, genetically predisposed and environmentally determined. Indeed, it may well be that this is true; that God may be a mere invention of the human mind; and that Karma was, likewise, invented by our desperate need to ascribe meaningful cause and effect relationships in our otherwise meaningless mechanical lives.


I could believe that, myself; and have, in fact, done so through the years. But, once one divests oneself of their faith-based beliefs and objectively observes life without such bias, then one must question why certain researchers obtain the very strange and controversial results which seem to suggest that there is something more to life than genetics and environment. Why, for example, would the human heart register a pre-sensory reaction to a random event not yet perceived by the brain? Why would human intention cause a small but consistent change in the behavior of mechanical devices? And, why would Near Death Experiences reveal verifiable information when all sensory functions have ceased?


Karma may, in fact, be merely and invention of the human need for explanations; and there might not be any rhyme or reason to life. But, to deny it out of hand seems rather like denying that there is such a thing as love, which supersedes even our primal need to stay alive. Why, for example, would someone sacrifice sacrifice themselves for a friend, or even a stranger in trouble? By the same token, why would children reincarnate in this world with verifiable information from a past life? For no reason at all?


Cause and effect as a concept is the very foundation of all things physical and conceptual. It is the basis of all experience, and one cannot escape it -- even on the spiritual plane where time is said to work differently. And Karma is simply another term for the concept of cause and effect. It does exist. This is not to say, however, that we can explain someone's mishap by the over-simplistic explanation that they must have screwed up in a past life. In fact, I strongly disagree that those who suffer in one life will have it easy during the next. Quite the contrary. It is more likely that we keep on repeating similar lives and similar problems until we learn to climb out of the habitual ruts that we've created for ourselves over time.

 

[rjmarzano]

A Question about karma...

I have been wondering about how karma works when incarnating here on earth. If someone had carried out an evil act towards another person and for their karma they had to experience the same treatment as they put on that person, what would happen to the person that carried out the acts on the person that was experiencing their own karma? Would they then be making karma for themself even though it was a planned event? The only possibility that I could think of is that someone has volunteered for this, causing them no karma once they die. Sorry if that was confusing :laugh: I hope you know what I am trying to say. :thumbsup:

It sounds like you mean if somebody harms someone else and they then have to experience that same thing themselves the person they harmed would somehow be responsible for the bad karma.


Why would you think something like that ?


This book shows how the process of karma works I believe:


The Lives of Edgar Cayce by W. H. Church (Aug 1995)


Edgar Cayce was not immune to the law of karma. He experienced the effects of bad karma in various brutal ways.


The law of karma means there are consequences for the choices people make. If hell and the law of karma didn't exist life would be completely meaningless. Of course people are going to have to pay for the evil things they do.


For some the price will be 'forever'.

 

[Truthseeker]

Cause and effect as a concept is the very foundation of all things physical and conceptual. It is the basis of all experience, and one cannot escape it -- even on the spiritual plane where time is said to work differently. And Karma is simply another term for the concept of cause and effect. It does exist. This is not to say, however, that we can explain someone's mishap by the over-simplistic explanation that they must have screwed up in a past life. In fact, I strongly disagree that those who suffer in one life will have it easy during the next. Quite the contrary. It is more likely that we keep on repeating similar lives and similar problems until we learn to climb out of the habitual ruts that we've created for ourselves over time.

I agree as well.


I don't see things as punishment. I see them as consiquence. If I get lung cancer after years of smoking, the cancer is not a punishment from God because of a 'sinful' smoking habit. The cancer is simply a consiquence of the choice to smoke. If we treat people well, we will be treated well. If we treat people poorly, we will be treated poorly. It is all consiquence, cause and effect, or "karma" if that is what you want to call it. It carries on from life to life. If we want to change it, we must change what we do.


"If you keep on doing what you've always done, you'll keep on getting what you've always gotten."


I do believe that souls are good by nature. We desire to do the right thing. It is because of this that a soul who lived as a Muslim would come back a Jew to find understanding. But, it is hard to climb out of those habitual ruts. Heck, I know I shouldn't drink that soda in front of me, but it's so darn tempting.

 

[Truthseeker]

If hell and the law of karma didn't exist life would be completely meaningless. Of course people are going to have to pay for the evil things they do.

With all due respect, how does the punishment of people's actions you disagree with make life meaningful?

 

[Kristopher]

The law of karma means there are consequences for the choices people make. If hell and the law of karma didn't exist life would be completely meaningless. Of course people are going to have to pay for the evil things they do. For some the price will be 'forever'.

So by hell you mean eternal torment? I couldnt disagree more. We learn from our mistakes, we are not simply put into a 'hell' forever and forgotten about. Although I have been told by christians that I am going to 'burn in hell' for my belief in reincarnation.

 

[Delonada]

Karma may, in fact, be merely and invention of the human need for explanations; and there might not be any rhyme or reason to life. But, to deny it out of hand seems rather like denying that there is such a thing as love, which supersedes even our primal need to stay alive. Why, for example, would someone sacrifice sacrifice themselves for a friend, or even a stranger in trouble? By the same token, why would children reincarnate in this world with verifiable information from a past life? For no reason at all?

I would rather say that a human's understanding of karma might be wrong(we won't know until it is all over).


Concepts may be real, but our interpretation of them may be wrong. He/she who wishes of karma to be a punishing force that condemns people to hell is a rather spiteful being and to be honest, anyone who considers such a concept to be a requisite for existence is a person who is full of anger and hate.


However, karma may exist as memory. Karma may be the emotions and approach to life that we take with us, and every time we fail to adjust those approaches we repeat history and all the pain it brings.

 

[rjmarzano]

A Question about karma...

With all due respect, how does the punishment of people's actions you disagree with make life meaningful?

It's not a question of what I believe or disagree with.


This gets into very basic questions about good and evil. This is a law in the universe like free will.


Things like organized crime for example are caused by greed. I suspect this is something that happens on many, many other planets throughout the universe.


When people get 'made' into the Italian mafia for example a picture of a saint like Saint Joseph is put in their hand and set on fire. They are told:


"This is La Cosa Nostra. Our thing. If you ever violate the vows you are taking today you will burn in hell just like this saint."


(Notice how they twisted a few things around there.)


Those vows mean something even though many of them rat each other out anyway. But they become part of an evil force in this world.


A vow like that is similar to someone selling their soul. People 'sell their souls' in many different ways. Jack Ruby to me is someone who sold his soul to the dark forces of his time and couldn't get out of the bargain, as much as he wanted to. Pontius Pilate was another.


The Italian island of Sicily is still trying to escape from under the iron fist of the mafia even today.


Do you think extorting, beating up, killing people, enslaving and destroying people with heroin, etc., will have no consequences or is just caused because someone didn't eat the right food when they were kids ?

 

[Nightrain]

This gets into very basic questions about good and evil. This is a law in the universe like free will. Things like organized crime for example are caused by greed.

I hope you won't mind me adding just a bit of insight regarding good and evil. When it comes to organized crime, for example, I have found that the motivation behind becoming involved in "evil" acts is not so much greed, but rather circumstances and the need to be accepted in some kind of community. Brotherhood, for example, has led some of us to be a part of something that we may not have realized was evil. Or, we may have anticipated a threat and found ourselves embroiled in violent acts on behalf of our family and organization. As a nation, for example, we very often find ourselves existentially being part of violent, unfair, and seemingly evil acts. Where does one separate organized crime by the so-called "Mafia", and acts perpetrated by other organizations in the name of profit, or even national security?


I would say that individual acts, which are motivated by sheer selfishness and base desires are more often clearly evil; while group acts, which are motivated by brotherhood are more often difficult to discern. For some the battle between good and evil is somewhat like chasing quantum particles. We know that they are there, but we can't see them, and we don't know what part they play in our lives.


So, where Karma is concerned, one might correctly assert that it has nothing to do with good verses evil. Perhaps one might more accurately suggest that the purpose of Karma has more to do with getting away from selfishness and self-centeredness, because it seems that acts motivated by these are most heinous and ignorant. No matter what we do, the effect is always felt by others in the same way that heat radiates from the Sun.


Cases of claimed reincarnation by children as studied by Dr. Ian Stevenson and others seems to consistently suggest some kind of Karmic influence underpinning their return. Each case may be different, but the one thing each case shares is some kind of relationship between lives, such that we could not predict, but which suggests that some kind of planning occurred either with the help of other beings, or solely within the wishes of the individual.

 

[usetawuz]

...and then there is the law of grace enabling one who has caused an event to understand the extent of its repercussions and move on without karmic obligation...but it is nowhere near as fun!


I really don't get much resonance with "good" and "evil"...to me they are societal/cultural descriptions of acceptable behavior, and punishment or self chastisement is solely meted out by our higher selves. But that's just me...I believe the golden rule seems to work pretty well to limit incidental karmic effects.

 

[Kristopher]

So, where Karma is concerned, one might correctly assert that it has nothing to do with good verses evil. Perhaps one might more accurately suggest that the purpose of Karma has more to do with getting away from selfishness and self-centeredness, because it seems that acts motivated by these are most heinous and ignorant. No matter what we do, the effect is always felt by others in the same way that heat radiates from the Sun.

Good point.

 

[Delonada]

It's not a question of what I believe or disagree with.
This gets into very basic questions about good and evil. This is a law in the universe like free will.


Things like organized crime for example are caused by greed. I suspect this is something that happens on many, many other planets throughout the universe.


When people get 'made' into the Italian mafia for example a picture of a saint like Saint Joseph is put in their hand and set on fire. They are told:


"This is La Cosa Nostra. Our thing. If you ever violate the vows you are taking today you will burn in hell just like this saint."


(Notice how they twisted a few things around there.)


Those vows mean something even though many of them rat each other out anyway. But they become part of an evil force in this world.


A vow like that is similar to someone selling their soul. People 'sell their souls' in many different ways. Jack Ruby to me is someone who sold his soul to the dark forces of his time and couldn't get out of the bargain, as much as he wanted to. Pontius Pilate was another.


The Italian island of Sicily is still trying to escape from under the iron fist of the mafia even today.


Do you think extorting, beating up, killing people, enslaving and destroying people with heroin, etc., will have no consequences or is just caused because someone didn't eat the right food when they were kids ?

I don't want to offend anyone, but you have a naive idea of good and evil, and organized crime and Sicily for that matter. In fact, your logic is a bit nationalistic and racist in many ways.


Although you don't say it in as many words you are saying that many born of a certain nation and race are more "evil souls" than others. If that were the case the United States would be the seat of evil considering the wars it has started in the name of greed and how it is governed by greedy merchants trading invisible money.


As you can see stereotyping can go both ways.


Religious organizations are organized crime. Nations can act like organized crime. Corporations can act like organized crime. If everything and nothing can act as organized criminal, are we then all guilty?


We could even say that those who are raised Christians and remain Christians are evil souls considering the anger and hatred they portray towards everything they deem unfitting(same would technically go for islam in its current state and the last 400 years).

 

[msmir]

So by hell you mean eternal torment? I couldnt disagree more. We learn from our mistakes, we are not simply put into a 'hell' forever and forgotten about. Although I have been told by christians that I am going to 'burn in hell' for my belief in reincarnation.

I guess we all here will join that club then :laugh:


Karma is not necessarily tit for tat like people think. It is a matter of bringing balance to the universe, and karma can manifest itself in different ways. For instance, if you were a Nazi in one life it does not mean you would end up as a tortured victim in Kosovo in that next life. Karma for that soul may be as simple as needing to teach others how destructive hate is and have a pull to be proactive in that approach without having to experience torture. However some souls may choose that if they feel that is what is needed to balance the universe.


As far as negative things happening in life, it does not always have to stem from negative karma. Some souls choose harsh lives just to learn as some other members were saying.

 

[Truthseeker]

It's not a question of what I believe or disagree with.

Sure it is. It absolutely is a matter of belief. There are no shortage of people who believe that homosexuality is evil and sinful, and that anyone who lives a homosexual lifestyle is going to Hell. How is that not a matter of belief and whether or not someone agrees with that person's actions?

This gets into very basic questions about good and evil. This is a law in the universe like free will.

The problem with your 'law' is it can vary from one religion to the next. It is not always even clear within a particular religion. For the majority of people in the Western world the Bible is viewed as the highest moral authority. The commandments say Thou Shall Not Kill, yet there is killing going on throughout the Bible, many of which are commanded by God. How can God make it a law not to kill then turn around and tell someone to kill someone? Are those Christians who killed Muslims in the Crusades doomed to eternal punishment? They believed they were carrying out God's holy will. However, from the Muslim perspective the Crusaders were evil.

Do you think extorting, beating up, killing people, enslaving and destroying people with heroin, etc., will have no consequences or is just caused because someone didn't eat the right food when they were kids ?

First of all, I don't believe in 'good' souls and 'evil' souls. I believe we have likely all done things in past lives that someone would call 'evil.' To deny this is naive. I also believe anyone of us is capable of doing bad things under the right circumstances. I can point to specific scientific studies that prove this. I do not condone these things, but it is easy to cast stones when you are not standing in the other person's shoes.


I believe that the purpose of life is to experience life, and to express love for one another. Punishment is vengence, and vengence is not an act of love. Things that you see as evil are acts that are done with a lack of love. How can the violence cycle be broken when it is responded to with the same lack of love that perpetrated it in the first place? If God is the source of all love in the universe, would God not also be the ultimate expression of love?

 

[Kristopher]

First of all, I don't believe in 'good' souls and 'evil' souls. I believe we have likely all done things in past lives that someone would call 'evil.' To deny this is naive. I also believe anyone of us is capable of doing bad things under the right circumstances. I can point to specific scientific studies that prove this. I do not condone these things, but it is easy to cast stones when you are not standing in the other person's shoes.

I agree that we all have probably done 'evil' things in other lives. I also, like you, believe that there are no good or evil souls. I think 'evil' is something that only exists here on earth. Just like the reason why we have to come into physical form to experience different emotions and actions. Greed, terror, sadness, anger are only avalible for us to experience when we incarnate. No feelings apart from love exist in the spirit world which is another reason why we cannot properly develop in spirit form without incarnating. If we are here to experience different events and feelings, ofcourse that includes negative ones. Sometime we may be the cause of these negative feelings to others, sometimes other people may be the cause of giving us them.