Belief in reincarnation tied to memory errors

[traveler]

What do you all think of this?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17982545/​

Personally, I think it is a bit rash to start with the assumption that reincarnation memories are "implausable", and especially to link this ancient religious belief with people who believe they have been abducted by aliens.

What is your experience with the role of suggestibility in past life hypnosis? I have heard of this fallacy in relation to other types of hypnosis. What do believe are the chances of mistakes occurring with past life memories? How do we avoid them?

 

[iddy92]

my 2 cents

the article itself sounded bias to begin with, but its implication is clear- people who believe they had past lives were more likely to 'misremember' names (items).

although i have to say that it's one thing to remember the name of the person that you heard from today and it's another thing to remember a specific event that is not familiar to you in your life as well as its emotional components.......

but yeah, the article seemed to say that people who claimed to remember past-life have defective mechanism for memory..

 

[iddy92]

my 2 cents continued

also, this study TOTALLY ignored analysis reported by Jim Tucker, who said that children who remembered past lives have higher level of intelligence and that they are less suggestible as other children.

this article started by saying "The propensity to make these mistakes (certain types of memory errors) could, in part, explain why people cling to implausible reincarnation claims in the first place."

the author obviously already made up his mind about this ridiculous belief of reincarnation- so what's the point.

 

[Ailish]

Imo, the study they present is somewhat ridiculous - and definitely biased. Asking people to remember a list of random names and categorize them -- in no way compares to remembering a past life name -- which carries an emotional significance along with the memory.

What is your experience with the role of suggestibility in past life hypnosis?

As Deborah said in the thread Memories without Hypnosis:

"Hypnosis stems from a Greek word meaning to go to sleep, or to loose consciousness. Indeed the term alone carries with it a stigma of control and manipulation. A regression includes inductions, and simple suggestions, leading a person to find understanding in an altered state through the subconscious mind.

But selective awareness is an altered state of mind that is natural and happens for everyone. The mind is alert and concentrated on a particular focus. This can be a focus in physical waking life, like jogging, or washing dishes. Or a deeper focus in meditation which includes the surfacing of inner thoughts, feelings and emotions regarding events in the past, even in past lives."

I have personally never been hypnotized -- never used it as a method for accessing past life memories. I've had memories since childhood -- and they've continued through dreams, spontaneous recall and meditation.

My views are very similar to the ones mentioned above -- my preference is meditation, simply because it is an altered state of consciousness and the chance of suggestibility is eliminated. I've found it to be effective for me personally -- and I've gotten a lot of wonderful information, which I've been able to validate both on my own -- and in the instance of shared memories with others.


Ailish

 

[traveler]

The bias here is quite obvious. These researchers basically took a group of people they considered "normal" and compared them with a group of people they consider carrying beliefs they consider "implausable".

It may be more telling if they had done a study comparing people of various religions. For instance, take a group of people who believe in reincarnation but have never had a past life memory, another group who has had past life memories, a group that doesn't believe in an afterlife, a group that believes in eternal heaven/hell, etc. Even so, a test of rote memory under hypnosis is probably not an accurate way of determining the accuracy of their beliefs. It really seems a strange correlation to make.

 

[Titus Rivas]

General materialist trend

As I see it, this kind of study is part of a larger skeptical and materialist attempt to reduce paranormal experiences to psychological and even neurological processes. We've seen the same in fields like Near-Death Experiences and Out-of-Body Experiences.

Of course, there are some people who really do fantasize about previous lives. I wrote an article about such a person myself: Alfred Peacock? Reincarnation fantasies about the Titanic

However, there is no reason to suppose such people are representative of all adults who claim ro recall a previous incarnations, let alone of children who remember past lives. See: Past-life Interpretations: we need all of them

Also, the main reason scholars are looking for neurological causes of subjective paranormal experiences is that they are materialists, and not at all that it would really be plausible to do so.

Titus Rivas

 

[tanguerra]

I would not take the results of that experiment too seriously either. I am not at all sure about their methodology, which is not very well described in the article so it is hard to work out exactly what they were doing, how many people were involved etc. I am very suspicious about this bit:

"Researchers recruited people who, after undergoing hypnotic therapy, had come to believe that they had past lives..."

I am not sure if this means people who had a past life regression done by a qualified practitioner, or if they had a hypnotist deliberately planting suggestions about reincarnation or ...? I also fail to see what having a greater or lesser ability to remember a list of names has to do with the price of eggs or anything else for that matter, except being good at remembering lists.

When people who are prone to making these mistakes undergo hypnosis and are repeatedly asked to talk about a potential idea — like a past life — they might, as they grow more familiar with it, eventually convert the idea into a full-blown false memory.

Nonsense, the whole thing. It is well known that under hypnosis ideas can be suggested to people so that they come to believe it. Stage hypnotists make people dance around like chickens and so forth. This is not what past life therapists are doing, so this is not proving anything. Also, as Ailish says, this does not provide any insight into what is going on with people such as she, myself and others who remember things spontaneously and have done since childhood.

However, all the same I am glad that there is someone at least beginning to look into the whole thing with some sort of method (even if it might be a bit questionable at this stage).

 

[Eteponge]

That biased study certainly doesn't explain the numerous well documented cases of Spontaneous Past Life Recall of young children (typically from the time they first begin talking until they are around seven years of age) where they recall numerous very important veridical details from a previous life that turn out to be correct. Likewise with spontanius or regressed veridical details gained through adults.

Nor does it explain numerous well documented cases where birthmarks or scars in the present life match those of death marks or injuries or scars in their previous lives.

Nor does it explain numerous well documented cases of people having intense fears or phobias or physical problems in their present life that is traced to a previous life either through Spontaneous Past Life Recall or through undergoing Past Life Regression, that is then completely cured by them remembering it and confronting it.

Nor does it explain numerous well documented cases where a person undergoing Past Life Regression speaks an unlearned foreign language in the manner of the dialect of the time, including persons who speak dead languages during their Past Life Regression.

Nor does it explain several noted cases of people born blind who were able to see during a Spontaneous Past Life Recall or through undergoing Past Life Regression in which they had recalled living a previous sighted life.

Etc.

In other words, it's hopelessly one-sided, and falls apart with 2 seconds of honest research. It also seems to be going the angle of the old stereotype that "only people who believe in Reincarnation remember past lives, and they only remember being famous people". I seriously LOLED at their ignorance.

 

[KarenF]

Scientifically invalid and here's why

I haven't posted on this forum for a very long time, but as my usual reincarnation forum is now down for maintenance, I guess I have to scratch my itch somewhere... as well, there is a key flaw, a fatal flaw, in this study that I feel the need to point out. It's a basic flaw of selection and designation of the experimental group, which renders the results meaningless. In science it's always garbage in garbage out.

People who believe they have lived past lives as, say, Indian princesses or battlefield commanders are more likely to make certain types of memory errors, according to a new study...

Researchers recruited people who, after undergoing hypnotic therapy, had come to believe that they had past lives.

The flaw is this: the study does not show that people who believe they've lived past lives make source-monitoring memory errors. The study shows that people who after undergoing hypnotic therapy have come to believe they've lived past lives make source-monitoring memory errors.

All members of the experimental group have undergone hypnotic therapy. That means they are self-selected as people who went to a therapist... for some reason. Emotional problems? Mental health issues? Perhaps in some cases memory problems? No attempt was made, apparently, to control for this factor.

Not only this, but they came to believe in past lives only after undergoing hypnotic therapy, as the article makes clear. That means they did not hold the belief before. It seems the recruiters for the study were specifically looking for people who'd been convinced by hypnotists that they had past lives -- people who likely to be more suggestible than average -- rather than controlling for this second factor.

This is not a valid way to select an experimental group when you're doing a study that claims to show characteristics of people who believe in past lives.

A properly scientific study of the hypothesis would have sought out a cross-section of reincarnation believers -- people who were raised with the idea, people who came into it based on their own non-hypnotized experiences, people who just "always knew," etc. as well as hypnosis clients.

So yes. This isn't science; it's as Titus says, materialist propaganda.

Karen

 

[deborah]

Hi Traveler,

There is a good book that sheds new light for scientific study regarding consciousness and the power of the mind. The Biology of Belief: Unleashing the Power of Consciousness, Matter and Miracles

A groundbreaking work in the field of New Biology. Author Dr. Bruce Lipton is a former medical school professor (University of Wisconsin) and research scientist (Stanford University School of Medicine). His experiments, examining in great detail the molecular mechanisms by which cells process information, have revealed that genes do not in fact control our behavior, instead, genes are turned on and off by influences outside the cell

These influences include our perceptions and beliefs. He shows that our beliefs, true or false, positive or negative, affect genetic activity and actually alter our genetic code. Dr. Lipton's profoundly hopeful work, being hailed as one of the major breakthroughs in the New Sciences, shows how we can retrain our consciousness to create healthy beliefs, and by doing so create a profoundly positive effect on our bodies and our lives.

There are some well grounded and important studies regarding consciousness in the scientific community. Reincarnation - if ever proven beyond personal experience - would come from studies such as Lipton's. Yes - he does touch on reincarnation in the book, although briefly.

I am a firm believer that consciousness creates. For example, the more attention (good or bad) we give to war - the more we empower it.

Reincarnation is not something that happens 'out there' - it is a personal journey, a personal experience. Science struggles to understand consciousness - and will most likely continue to do so for some time. Based on the brief article you posted - IMO - it suggests more about the state of mind, the struggle, and the naive attempts by the researchers to understand it.

Scientists who never venture out of the safety of their reality box; fail to see that the only true power found in science - is the willingness of scientists to venture out of the box.

Hi Karen - long time no see.

 

[Amy]

As I see it, this kind of study is part of a larger skeptical and materialist attempt to reduce paranormal experiences to psychological and even neurological processes. We've seen the same in fields like Near-Death Experiences and Out-of-Body Experiences.

I totally agree.

I would not take the results of that experiment too seriously either. I am not at all sure about their methodology, which is not very well described in the article so it is hard to work out exactly what they were doing, how many people were involved etc.

Exactly!

 

[deborah]

An older thread with some real interesting ideas posted by members.

 

[Nightrain]

I'm afraid that I become extremely angry when I come across the kind of garbage that disguises itself as "scientific study". Truly, msnbc and the word scientific should never be used within a dozen parsecs of each other. I think the same should be true of Scientific American Magazine, Wickipedia, Religion, and so many other so-called "experts", who try to rule our minds and hearts.


I can understand their reasoning for intentionally lying in order to save us from ourselves; but, good intentions don't prevent me from wanting to banish their evil actions to a very distant and uncomfortable Hades of their own invention.

 

[deborah]

lololo. I do enjoy your sense of humor...and your take on things Nightrain.

 

[Mr. Mike]

I'm probably one of the most skeptical members here, but I can tell you that my 'memories' are definately NOT memory errors. I've always had an excellent ability to recall memories and if you show me a picture of a place I've visited, I can tell you exactly where it is. I can clearly tell you what memories are from this life and I can almost always verify them as nearly 100% accurate (except things seemed MUCH bigger as a small child!)


This is another example of why I can't stand organized skepticism. Just about all of them will point to one example of a hoax or minor error and instantly yell 'myth debunked!'

 

[dking777]

Researchers recruited people who, after undergoing hypnotic therapy, had come to believe that they had past lives.

This line in the artical says it all. With the right sort of suggestion - you can make people believe they are monkeys. I recently studied the roles Confirmation bias / Cognitive Dissonance have on society.


I was reminded of this when I looked back on a group of about 50 people who I took to a road in the country after my NDE. There was a spirit there and all 50 people saw it. I took them in small groups. Going in - they would either believe in such matter, disbelieve, or have an open mind.


When the group who 'disbelieved' saw an actual spirit - they were caught up in the moment and admitted they saw something their eyes and mind - couldn't believe - but admitted they saw something they couldn't explain. After the incident - regardless of the actual proof presented to their eyes and minds - they radiated back to their 'disbelief' and explained it away as a 'trick of the mind.'


So - the mindset of the 'researchers' going into this study and responsible for gathering the group - would have a dramatic outcome in the results - I feel - they were looking to produce in the first place.


My opinion anyway.


DK

 

[dking777]

Hypnosis
In the first book on the subject, Neurypnology (1843), Braid described "hypnotism" as a state of physical relaxation accompanied and induced by mental concentration ("abstraction").

I feel there is a great deal of misconception about what 'hypnosis' is and what it isn't.


I went to a hypnotist in 1996 because I had a memory of childhood come back and it was sort of 'vague.' I had heard about hypnosis on TV and thought I would give it a try. I had no idea what it was or what it involved going in. I wasn't after a past life memory as much as I was looking to focus in on memory from this life time.


All it was - (in my opinion) was asking someone to 'coach' you into physically relaxing moment - to open up mental concentration. To me - there was no 'hocus pocus' to it. In fact, I was sort of disappointed because there was not the 'hocus pocus' involved that I thought would be.


To me - it was nothing more than getting a 'coach' to help you in a deep form of meditation that you can do on your own. There was no suggestions put into my head about what memory I was looking for other than basic information I gave to him prior. I was eight or nine. I was in a certain city. I was standing next to my Grandpa and something mystical happened.


After the hypnosis session - I confirmed everything with my Grandfather who was still alive in 1996.


But I am sure that if there are people out there who are looking to 'disprove' hypnosis as a means of clarifying memories of the past (whether from this life or a previous life) then whether or not hypnosis is the vehicle - I feel their are many people who may have 'false ideas' of a past life due to a 'fantasy element' or 'imagination' element involved.


I sure there is going to be a percentage of that and I believe I read somewhere that Dr. Ian Stevenson acknowledge that in his own research.


Proving there are 'false memories' - doesn't 'disprove' reincarnation. It just confirms something I feel a qualified scientist has already confirms exists when researching past life testimony from individuals.


DK