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Confused and intimidated

sellingmysoul said:
I didn't realize, years ago, that my personal spiritual beliefs can't be reconciled with religion, that it's impossible, and that this is okay. That never occurred to me, and the guilt imposed on me by well-meant but misguided church members only made things worse. I have a venomous hatred for all things religious as a result. Maybe others can understand this, maybe not.
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It would be impossible for me to relate more, Vincent. I can't describe the depths of anger I hold toward religion in general, and certain Church more specifically. They provided me with a quality education for twelve years; which, ironically, sewed the seeds of their own destruction. Although their present intentions are good, the long path of destruction behind them is unforgivable. And, the effects of their past behavior are still felt today.


However, you probably won't hear other members of this forum speaking with such sentiments as mine; because doing so is not often pertinent to reincarnation, and the subject can, sometimes, be divisive. But, you can bet that there are many other people on this Forum, who carry with them the same scars that you have been burdened with.


And, as you've discovered, when we speak of spirituality, we generally mean that part of you, that knows you are immortal, and that we are, somehow, all connected. Many of the folks here have reconciled with Religion to varying degrees; so that there is room on this Forum for objective discussion. And, after reading one of your recent posts, I would venture to say that you are a compassionate and spiritual person; who can be objective about Religion, as one would be about Philosophy.


-Nightrain
 
It's hard for me to really gauge how angry I am with religion. I don't think I have a hatred for religion. I feel more disappointment than anything. I feel like a lot was taken from me because I spent so long living with guilt and fear. I've had times where I was accually being pressured into living a religious life (even becoming a priest). If it wasn't happening then it was because I wasn't surrendering to God's will. How do they know what God's will is? Why doesn't anyone care what my will is?


I'm much more of a free thinker and much more open-minded than anyone else in my family. I have learned to take religion is a big grain....wait, more like a pillar of salt.


I agree Nightrain. There is a long path of destruction, not only laid by a certain Church, but in the name of God or gods across the board that is unforgivable.
 
We probably have a very similar history in this life - more than you know, I'm sure. So I say this out of love for you.


Anger and hatred will not help you. This is something that I know very, very well.


As a believer in reincarnation, you know that carrying a boatload of negative karma into another lifetime is something that you don't want to do. Just try and find it within yourself to let go of hate for anything. Not easy, but you can do anything that you want to do, if you want it.


I think about something that most all of us believe and that is "consciousness creates". You are creating your own reality, moment by moment. What a wonderful gift to us. But to effect change in this life you have to do more than believe that, you have to practice it all of the time - something that gets easier over time.
 
Well said Stardis.


Indeed, hanging on to anger and hate and being attached to 'drama' in general is not helpful, whether it is a present or past life issue.
 
This is just a thought I had. The intensity of anger and hate MAY have something to do with the nightmares. As everyone knows, most religions in the past ( and some in the present) had and / or are having their less than glorious days. The fact that sellingmysoul remembers the person persuing him in the dream as a witch of some sort ( a spiritual type person) could mean the issue with religion and spiritualism may have started in another life. Maybe even more than one life.


I know that in my life there have been a few things that I've come across that causes instant anger. They were also things that made me angry in that other life. I don''t think the intensity has changed either.


Sellingmysoul, if your imagination ever got away from you while you were angry on this subject, are there any repeating themes or even scenes that go through your mind? The anger may be acting like a messenger trying to deliver you a messege (or a memory). Something may have happened in the past that was beyond anything that you could fathom then. Which might include some of the gore you say you are experiencing also.
 
You bring up an interesting question, wednesday, but the nightmares pre-date the anger issue. The anger didn't materialize until early adolescence. The nightmares began about the time I was six, maybe five.
 
Sellingmysoul, was religion a big part of your early childhood? Do you think the cause of the anger was all in this life or could a bad experience along the way could have triggered a deeper pool of anger in you?
 
The anger comes from experiences in this life. Definitely this life. Religion was a big part of my childhood, my parents sent my brothers and I to church just to get us out of the house and give themselves some peace for a few hours, but I did begin questioning things, what my purpose was, was there a god, etc., at a very early age. I remember thinking, one day, as I was sitting in church, that all the adults creeped me out. They were too happy!! And the idea of being happy for all eternity...that creeped me out, too. No other emotions but happiness? That's just too much of one emotion for me. Am I the only one who finds this creepy? Imagine everyone being happy ALL the time. Forever. It just makes my skin crawl! It's like God is controlling everyone, making them feel this way, as if they have no choice. And since it's god doing this, no one would know that the feelings weren't really theirs, that the happiness didn't originate from their own will. It reeks of pre-destination, or mind control.
 
:laugh: I absolutely roared, when I read your eloquent description. To paraphrase a movie many of us have seen, "I see creepy people!


But... But...They don't know that they're CREEPY!?"


-Nightrain
 
An episode of Star Trek, the Next Generation popped into my head. It was the one were Wesley threw the ball into the garden, which was against the rules. It was on a planet where they thought they were all perfect. Everything was all golden and they were dressed like Romans, only a little skimpier. Everyone obeyed all the rules all the time because if you didn't you were destroyed (unless you had Jean-Luc Picard covering your backside).


Whoever wrote that episode may have been thinking the same thing.


There are some religions where it's looked down on to show any negative emotions, which I think is unhealthy and unrealistic. People don't always have the power over what emotions they feel, only how they choose to deal with them.
 
I saw that episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, wednesday! I also saw the movie Nightrain paraphrased. Nightrain, I'm glad I could give you a good laugh!


What I described in my last post, though, was the beginning of the problem that would later develop into the anger I feel. Think about it;if god is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, who's to know if what god says to us IS true? We only have his word to go on, he's hardly an objective witness where his honesty and integrity are concerned, we have no other third-party witnesses who could be depended on to be objective in determining god's truthfulness. It's just his word against whoever disagrees with him, and god's omnipotent and omniscient;the ultimate manipulater. I've thought about this, long and hard. I know all the arguments that could be made for or against this. I've debated people about this, one of whom is a pastor. I've read countless articles in books and online. Ultimately, it all boils down to faith. Do you have faith in god and what he says, or don't you? I decided that you can't have faith in something that doesn't exist. And if god did exist, I wanted nothing to do with him. Because if god does exist, then he's responsible for everything, even if only indirectly. He created everything, he allowed for the possibility of evil, he knew beforehand that it would exist, and still he created, even if he didn't want it to exist, he's responsible for it because he allowed for the possibility of evil coming into existence. He should never have created to begin with. And his not allowing anyone to choose to be neutral in all this? Unfair, unjust! And a major cop- out theologians use in their arguments, as the Kalam argument, as it's worded, is a cop-out! Anything that begins to exist? Even a school kid could tell you, if something exists, it HAD to have a beginning, it had to come from somewhere!!! God is no exception! Even if god exists outside space or time, he had to come from somewhere. The Kalam argument is just semantics, a clever playing with words!


Sorry for the rant, I had to get that off my chest. I didn't mean to offend anyone.
 
It sounds to me like you are doing everything you can to not believe in a personal god and yet somewhere inside - you want to believe in one.


What difference does it make, now?
 
It makes a difference, if there is a personal god or isn't. If there isn't, we're completely free to determine our own destiny. If there is a personal god, then we're not completely free, this personal god would have some say in the matter, whether we like it or not.
 
What is a "personal god"? Why can't one be free if there is a god?


Does a personal god, or any other kind, have authority over you?


Isn't it possible to live one's life in a positive way without a god? Could it not be possible that all of our souls together constitute God?


-Nightrain
 
Good questions, Nightrain, especially the last one. That thought hasn't occurred to me before, but I like that idea. Certainly food for thought.


And stardis, if I sometimes seem to contradict myself, well...that's human nature. Everyone, at some point in life, will contradict themselves. Some do this more than others. I seem to be one of those who do this quite often. I don't hide this aspect of myself, I can live with it with some degree of comfort.
 
I never questioned the validity of believing, stardis. Validity has little to do with it, for me anyway. And as to why I think we are completely free, is because I instinctively know I'm free to determine my destiny. I don't need anything else to tell me this.
 
stardis said:
Here is a link to a paper on The Validity of Belief in a Personal God that is well worth reading but, you need to read it from beginning to end, every word, to get the most out of it.
Also, why should you think that we are "completely free"?
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Thanks for the link to C. D. Broad's paper, "The Validity of Belief in a Personal God". The title is a bit deceiving, because he manages to knock down every conceivable argument for the existence of a Personal God. Somewhat tedious reading, but much of what C.D. Broad wrote were the very same arguments that I've been considering for years. Although I agree with his points, I do harbor some remaining belief that there is some form of God or God-ness that we cannot understand as long as we remain in this dimension. In the meantime, I would propose that we don't need a God in order to behave with grace and virtue. Nor do we need the fear of God to motivate us.


On the issue of being free, I believe that we are free, as long as we don't burden ourselves with the guilt and fear that is perpetuated by Religion. Yes, we are still restricted by circumstance as well as by each other. But, at least, not by dogma. I hope that I understood your question correctly.


-Nightrain
 
Yes, Nightrain, circumstances and other people, their choices, do restrict us, but we are still free in determining our own destiny. Circumstances can only restrict us so far, they cannot keep anyone from determining how that person lives their life, or what kind of person they turn out to be. Other people and circumstances can only turn a person in a certain direction. It's the person's choice to do whatever they will, at that point.
 
Nightrain1 said:
Thanks for the link to C. D. Broad's paper, "The Validity of Belief in a Personal God". The title is a bit deceiving, because he manages to knock down every conceivable argument for the existence of a Personal God. Somewhat tedious reading, but much of what C.D. Broad wrote were the very same arguments that I've been considering for years.
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Hi my friend.


I am glad that you read it. I think most people would be put off by something that is more than a few sentences. It is only a little misleading in that you are expecting to find a reason to believe in a personal god.


I do believe in a personal God, of sorts. I am acutely aware that in my darkest moments in this life that I called out to God to help me. I didn't do that out of some intellectual reasoning of my own that maybe there is a God, but rather the plea for help came from somewhere deep within me - like the knowledge of a God who I could talk to was always there. I just don't believe in "humanizing" God - that seems ridiculous to me. Rather, I believe that we are a part of God expanding her awareness into the universe and experiencing her existence through us.

Nightrain1 said:
On the issue of being free, I believe that we are free, as long as we don't burden ourselves with the guilt and fear that is perpetuated by Religion. Yes, we are still restricted by circumstance as well as by each other. But, at least, not by dogma. I hope that I understood your question correctly.
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Yes, I agree with you about the dogma that has so cursed mankind - perhaps that is karma to be worked out by all of us who haven't been able to free our minds and find a personal relationship with a God that also allows peace and love to flourish on the Earth. Something to think about.


I don't believe that we are free in the sense that we can determine our own destiny. I think that our own destiny is already determined and that we are experiencing the unfolding of that destiny along with the universe. Our freedom only extends to points within this life that allow us to work out karma and to mature as Beings of Light. The plan for this life was worked out before we were born and, like it or not, we are not free agents to muck things up without grave consequences on down the path of many incarnations.


Of course, these are my own opinions and beliefs because I certainly don't possess any absolute truths.
 
stardis, if we aren't free to determine our destiny, then free will goes out the window. Why bother with anything, then? If our destiny has already been worked out, then we're just pre-programmed robots made of meat. Our lives then become futile and cruel struggles against pain that's already been alotted to us by a god far more sadistic than any imagination of the human heart, and humans can be quite dark in their imaginings. Just ask anyone who survived the Holocaust. Our freedom must apply to all incarnations, all lives, and determining our karma IS determining our individual destiny. Karma doesn't just follow us from one life to another, but from this plane of existence to our joining with 'God', or the 'Universe', whatever term you prefere, however you define 'God'. Karma affects us not only on the physical realm, or plane, but the immaterial as well.
 
sellingmysoul said:
If our destiny has already been worked out, then we're just pre-programmed robots made of meat.
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No. We are Spirits who have joined with a human being to experience the vagaries of life in this physical dimension.

sellingmysoul said:
...a god far more sadistic than any imagination of the human heart...
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You are humanizing that which is not human.

sellingmysoul said:
Karma doesn't just follow us from one life to another, but from this plane of existence to our joining with 'God', or the 'Universe', whatever term you prefer, however you define 'God'. Karma affects us not only on the physical realm, or plane, but the immaterial as well.
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I respectfully disagree. While I don't know the extent to which karma affects Beings of Light or Spirits, I suspect it is not at all. My own feeling is that karma is a human condition and we keep having to deal with karma because we keep reincarnating into the Earth. In between incarnations, we are not messed up spirits with tons of baggage to deal with but instead exist in our true form as Beings of Light spun off by the Consciousness that created the universe.

sellingmysoul said:
...if we aren't free to determine our destiny, then free will goes out the window.
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We are free to make choices in this life that will determine how well we have faced the challenges set out for us before we were born. That is free will - freedom to choose, freedom to go this way or that way, freedom to immerse ourselves in love for all life or to deny that wonderful experience for ourselves. We have all kinds of free will but not the freedom to choose our destiny because that is the part that we are committed to play this time around.


Disclaimer: just my own thoughts and beliefs but, they seem to be working for me.
 
stardis, I disagree with you on karma because karma is the consequences of our actions. Those consequences follow us from one incarnation to another, we have to work out any negative karma in order to move from this plane of existence to the next. We couldn't do that, wouldn't need to, if karma didn't follow us from one life to another, staying with us between incarnations, even though we're beings of light. And as beings of light, we still have consequences, or karma in other words, to deal with as a result of our actions as beings of light. Just because we're beings of light doesn't mean that if we do something there won't be consequences. And you used one of my quotes out of context. I wasn't humanizing god. Someone, or some thing, doesn't have to be human in order to be sadistic. All it requires to be sadistic is the ability to get pleasure from watching another being suffer, or to get pleasure from inflicting suffering on another. The being deriving pleasure from such a thing doesn't have to be human in order to do that.
 
I seriously doubt that there is any kind of deity who is watching our every move and making judgements on what we get up to for good or ill or working out our individual 'karma' (in terms of reward and punishment) in any way. I also seriously doubt that there is a deity who is making all sorts of bad things happen to us out of some kind of sadistic malevolence or for her own amusement.


If what you mean by a 'personal God' is a God who takes an intense personal interest in each of our minute thoughts and actions - sorry, I just don't buy it.


I don't discount the idea that there might be some kind(s) of 'higher power(s)' out there in the universe - obviously humans are not the ultimate life form. Why would they be? Is there some kind of 'Human God' who takes an interest in Human affairs? Perhaps. Who knows? In that case there would also be a cow god, a cat god and ant god and so on...? Well, why not? In that case are there tree gods... rock gods...? :) Or is there just an 'Earth God' who takes an interest in the doings on this planet? It all sounds a bit unfeasible, not to mention bureaucratic to me personally.


I tend to believe that the things that happen to us in life, good luck, bad luck, good management or bad management, are somewhat more random than many religions (such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam) would have us believe.


I only believe in karma up to the point that I think if we harm or upset people in one life those actions can come home to roost in a later life, but no more than they do within the present life. After all, if you do someone a bad turn in this life, they are likely to want some kind of 'payback' at some point, unless they are a very high minded individual. Likewise, kind acts tend to be rewarded over time, eventually. If it is true that we seem to keep meeting up with the same group of people over and over again, all this would tend to follow? Surely we are all working this out as we go along, learning, growing, getting better with practice...?


I don't think there has to be much 'magic' or any guiding hand about this really. Just simple cause and effect.


Just a few thoughts.
 
Tanguerra, I wasn't espousing a belief in a personal god, even if my wording in my previous post seems to imply that I do harbor some belief deep down. I find it hard to avoid referring to a personal creator as if I do believe, and it's due to all the years I spent in churches having Christian dogma poured into my head. Maybe if I'd been sent to a Buddhist temple instead...but that's not the case. As children, we had no control over such things, and children don't usually question things such as "should I believe the things I'm told by adults". Children automatically want to believe, simply because these people telling them whatever are adults. So children don't think to question why they believe certain things, and eventually they grow up believing what they were told as children, with some exceptions being made, of course, but the majority of people simply accept what they were told as children, never questioning such beliefs for themselves. They simply weren't given a choice to choose their beliefs for themselves. Anyway, I wasn't endorsing a belief in a personal creator. Old habits die hard, though. Especially habits of thinking a certain way, attitudes adopted towards given things. I am trying to overcome my negativity, my anger, and I will eventually. I just have to focus on what I DO believe, instead of focussing on the problems of what I was taught to believe, and why those things anger me. As I said already, old habits are slow to die.
 
Going back to the nightmares, the building you mentioned could represent an organization or social group you are (or assuming this stems from a past life - were) a part of when inside, and have left or been rejected from when outside.


You mention that the dreams are dark, and when you are inside the building, you are fighting demon possession. I would read this as becoming more indoctrinated by the group, and not liking it very much. I would also consider the 'thing' chasing you as an authority over you, as you seem to have some strong opinions about gods, fate, and the like.


When you are chased you say that you are with a girl, and often the nature of the dream changes to looking for the girl, wanting to protect the girl, etc. Have you considered that the girl in the dream is symbolic for a part of yourself? For instance, your feminine side, intuition, emotions, or something like that?


All of this is not to say that your dreams are only symbolic and not from a past life. They could be both.
 
It occurs to me that any discussion involving a God can be extremely confusing, because we haven't established a firm definition or job description. It is true that most of the people on this forum have a Judeo-Christian-Muslim background, which defines God as an omnipotent and omniscient—almighty and all-knowing being; and that there is no other God. However, we do have intermediaries that we call Saints, Angels and deceased relatives, which perform many of the same functions that we attribute only to God. So, there we have something of a conflict. In other cultures these intermediaries are translated and often regarded as Gods. When we compare the ways that so-called pagans behaved towards these higher realms of existence, we would find very little difference other than how we name these beings.


So, for my own purposes, I would choose to regard this omnipotent, omniscient almighty and all-knowing being, pretty much as some Buddhists do; and that is to not be overly concerned about something that is so far beyond our level of understanding. I would rather accept that there are intermediaries at various levels, whose purpose is to guide us along our path, and to answer our prayers for help. Worship, for me, means nothing other than having and showing respect for them, as we would a Zen Master, or Master Journeyman.


When it comes to karma or dealing with the pain and frustration of this life, I believe that we have a lot more control of our situations than we think we have. However, we are beings that are prone to making mistakes; and we sometimes find ourselves in situations that are untenable. I also believe that, as a culture, we have been in the habit of giving up our responsibility and blaming everything on some "higher power" that is responsible for sadistically putting some of us through such cruel torture. But, what if there is nothing there to blame? Eventually, we would stop blaming and look for ways around our problems.


As someone pointed out in an earlier thread, karma is not so much about justice. Rather, it is something we have total control over. It is said that we are our greatest enemy, and the way we judge ourselves can be more severe than how someone else would judge us. When I think about those people, who have caused great suffering in the world, I think those very people are the ones who choose harsh lessons for themselves in their next incarnation. Justice is about how we judge ourselves. And karma is about how we know the effects of our choices.


-Nightrain
 
Thank you, Blueheart. I have considered those things you mentioned, yes. I have no problem with the nightmares being symbolic, but any attempts at interpreting my dreams has failed. Dream dictionaries are a joke, I used several, and I compared these with online dictionaries, all to no effect. Modern dream dictionaries, ancient, I even tried correlating the things seen in my dreams myself, to come up with my own key to understanding my dreams, but nothing seemed right, nothing felt right. Maybe I just need a new perspective, but thinking outside the box isn't something I'm good at.


Nightrain, I'm torn between hating theological issues and enjoying discussing them. Honestly, I find myself hoping that someone kills this thread. I think everyone would be happy to see this thread go the way of the dodo bird, and I can't blame them. This'll be my last post in this thread, at any rate. I'm going to focus on defining my beliefs, instead of focussing on the anger issues concerning religion. Everyone here has certainly given me a lot to think about, and I'm grateful for this. Now it's time to move on to more positive things.
 
Well, hopefully this thread has served its purpose. I've found it interesting anyway, and I'm sure others have too.


Have the nightmares got any better since you started talking about it all do you think Vincent?
 
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