Do the Souls on this forum know one another?

[dlorde]

...Fred Hoyle, an English Astronomer, fifty years ago correctly deduced that the carbon-12 nucleus must possess an energy level at 7.65 (MeV), because, he said, "I exist!";

I was recently shown a study of Hoyle's carbon resonance prediction, which indicates that the anthropic interpretation is probably mistaken:

Fred Hoyle and the 7.65 MeV Carbon Resonance
"I conclude that from a historical point of view it is misleading to label the prediction of the 7.65 MeV state anthropic or to use it as an example of the predictive power of the anthropic principle."

 

[Nightrain]

I was recently shown a study of Hoyle's carbon resonance prediction, which indicates that the anthropic interpretation is probably mistaken:

I found my research to make a lot more sense than Helge Kragh's long winded misinterpretation. Regardless of how you pick it apart, the conversation did happen, and it helps to point out that there are far stranger things in our universe than can be logically or scientifically understood.


Logic and science can provide temporary answers for many things, but it can't create better art, music, literature and human compassion by dissecting everything line by line.

 

[dlorde]

Logic and science can provide temporary answers for many things, but it can't create better art, music, literature and human compassion by dissecting everything line by line.

Very true. Although where science-based claims are made, logic and science must be used to test them.

 

[dlorde]

Florence, it occurred to me that the aura images you mentioned in your last post might have been Kirlian photography which became very popular in the 1970's, and produces images similar to what you describe (although I haven't found any descriptions of phantom tree branch images, only of phantom leaf sections). It has been studied quite extensively, particularly in Russia.


The Kirlian effect is caused by a high-voltage electrical field applied to an object on a photographic plate or film. The high voltage causes a powerful electrostatic field and corona discharge around the object, which produces patterns on the photographic film outlining the object (photocopiers use corona discharge to produce the electrostatic charge that attracts the toner powder to the drum that produces the copy of the image). The electrostatic field is affected by environmental conditions and the water and conductivity of the object involved.


I found an article describing it:

this special method of "photographing" objects is said to be a gateway to the paranormal world of auras. Actually, what is recorded is due to quite natural phenomena such as pressure, electrical grounding, humidity and temperature. Changes in moisture (which may reflect changes in emotions), barometric pressure, and voltage, among other things, will produce different 'auras'.

"Living things...are moist. When the electricity enters the living object, it produces an area of gas ionization around the photographed object, assuming moisture is present on the object. This moisture is transferred from the subject to the emulsion surface of the photographic film and causes an alternation of the electric charge pattern on the film. If a photograph is taken in a vacuum, where no ionized gas is present, no Kirlian image appears. If the Kirlian image were due to some paranormal fundamental living energy field, it should not disappear in a simple vacuum"
(Hines 2003).

There have even been claims of Kirlian photography being able to capture "phantom limbs," e.g., when a leaf is placed on the plate and then torn in half and "photographed," the whole leaf shows up in the picture. This is not due to paranormal forces, however, but to residues left from the initial impression of the whole leaf.

I've bolded a section of the Hines quote that provides evidence that the Kirlian effect is unlikely to be anything paranormal.


Nuclear physicist and SF author Milton Rothman said:

"When Kirlian photography was first announced, I was working in plasma physics, and immediately recognized that the photographs were nothing more than electrical discharges surrounding the object being photographed. Many accounts of Kirlian photography did not even mention that the source of the discharge was a high voltage power supply connected to the object. It was truly a fake.
One could call the electromagnetic field surrounding an antenna an energy field, since it does carry energy from one place to another. Even a static field is an energy field, since it has potential energy. But it is less ambiguous to call it by a specific name such as a gravitational field. Most physicists do not use the term "energy field" without specifying what they mean."

 

[Nightrain]

Although where science-based claims are made, logic and science must be used to test them.

Not true! Such statements are made directly from the Randi guidebook, but hugely overlook the "fact" that science barely understands the reality of everyday life. Every decision we make is based in large measure on trust. You, yourself, cannot possibly know for sure that you are going to make it home after even a trip around the corner. Statistics bear that out. Knowing that, do you pull out your auto specifications book before heading home, call your insurance company and obtain absolute guarantees from the police that you will not encounter an accident or some other mishap?


When you discover what you call scientific claims on this Forum, you are merely encountering what we consider additional evidence for what we have learned. Such statements do not warrant scientific rebuttals!

 

[dlorde]

Not true! Such statements are made directly from the Randi guidebook

Is there really such a book?

...hugely overlook the "fact" that science barely understands the reality of everyday life. Every decision we make is based in large measure on trust.

I certainly agree with that.

You, yourself, cannot possibly know for sure that you are going to make it home after even a trip around the corner. Statistics bear that out. Knowing that, do you pull out your auto specifications book before heading home, call your insurance company and obtain absolute guarantees from the police that you will not encounter an accident or some other mishap?

But how is that relevant to testing a science-based claim? The future is always uncertain to some degree - that's perfectly reasonable, and well accepted in science.

When you discover what you call scientific claims on this Forum, you are merely encountering what we consider additional evidence for what we have learned. Such statements do not warrant scientific rebuttals!

So it sounds like you're saying they're not really scientific claims, even though they may explicitly use scientific concepts & terminology in support? isn't there an implicit contradiction in that?


It seems analogous to making a claim involving maths - e.g. saying you've discovered a formula for improved winning chances when betting, then when someone uses maths to show the formula won't work, saying that they can't use maths to test it, because it wasn't a mathematical claim...


It doesn't really matter that much to me what people believe, but if I see mistaken use or misunderstanding of scientific ideas or terminology, I think it's worth mentioning, if only to help understanding and communication - after all we're here to try to help each other aren't we?


If I make a mistaken assertion or assumption about reincarnation, I'd certainly expect the forum members here to point out where I'd gone wrong.

 

[Nightrain]

Is there really such a book?

Not just a book...But a whole institute dedicated to one-sided thinking and sophic debate. :cool

But how is that relevant to testing a science-based claim? The future is always uncertain to some degree - that's perfectly reasonable, and well accepted in science.

This Forum is not set up to make scientific claims, but, rather, helpful evidence that may be of benefit to its members.

So it sounds like you're saying they're not really scientific claims, even though they may explicitly use scientific concepts & terminology in support? isn't there an implicit contradiction in that?

Maybe in your circle. :cool

It seems analogous to making a claim involving maths - e.g. saying you've discovered a formula for improved winning chances when betting, then when someone uses maths to show the formula won't work, saying that they can't use maths to test it, because it wasn't a mathematical claim...

Irrelevant!

It doesn't really matter that much to me what people believe, but if I see mistaken use or misunderstanding of scientific ideas or terminology, I think it's worth mentioning, if only to help understanding and communication - after all we're here to try to help each other aren't we?

If it doesn't matter what people believe, then why do you keep on trying to negate and demean those who do? :grr:

If I make a mistaken assertion or assumption about reincarnation, I'd certainly expect the forum members here to point out where I'd gone wrong.

You have already made it very clear that your position is not to accept anything we offer unless it can be scientifically proven. And, my point is that science is very over-rated, because because no one can base their entire life on provable facts. There is just not enough information.
In the meantime, I would personally like the real members of this Forum to feel safe and free to post their ideas and questions, no matter how ignorant you may consider them. There are many more creative and positive ways to offer information, and if you read more of the posts with an open mind, you would be able to see.


Good bye!

 

[Florence]

Your right Diorde...it WAS Kirilan photography that I was talking about. I have had my hand photographed and my whole body done several times.


I know it is electrical energy and that your emotions have an effect on. There may be more involved in those emanations than you know....The camera is not causing the effect...it's just recording them. Evidently it can't record when there is no ironization ...but that does not mean that the living energy is not there


I can walk into my bathroon right now and see my own arua in the mirror. It has changed color over time. It used to be yellow, then a pink, then blue which is presently becoming more lavender. I don't need a camera to see it...just a low light and a white background.


BTW....My friend did not talk to Sally....never met her and never would...he was a complete sceptic. He listened to me because he loved me....grin....I always felt an invisable little pat on the head....ha ha....but that was OK...he was free to believe whatever he wanted.

 

[dlorde]

Your right Diorde...it WAS Kirilan photography that I was talking about. I have had my hand photographed and my whole body done several times.
I know it is electrical energy and that your emotions have an effect on. There may be more involved in those emanations than you know....The camera is not causing the effect...it's just recording them. Evidently it can't record when there is no ironization ...but that does not mean that the living energy is not there

OK Florence, glad we found out what it was.

I can walk into my bathroon right now and see my own arua in the mirror. It has changed color over time. It used to be yellow, then a pink, then blue which is presently becoming more lavender. I don't need a camera to see it...just a low light and a white background.

Cool! I hope the colour change is positive for you

BTW....My friend did not talk to Sally....never met her and never would...he was a complete sceptic. He listened to me because he loved me....grin....I always felt an invisable little pat on the head....ha ha....but that was OK...he was free to believe whatever he wanted.

Fair enough.

 

[dlorde]

Not just a book...But a whole institute dedicated to one-sided thinking and sophic debate. :cool

There's no doubt that some of the enthusiasts go beyond strict scepticism, but that's internet forums for you. I've always liked the aphorism "Keep your mind open, but not so open that your brains fall out" - seems to sum up the rational approach for me

This Forum is not set up to make scientific claims, but, rather, helpful evidence that may be of benefit to its members.

That's fine with me. But I hope you won't mind if I point out when scientific terms and concepts are used inaccurately.

If it doesn't matter what people believe, then why do you keep on trying to negate and demean those who do? :grr:

You are misreading my motives. I'm trying on the one hand to explain by example how science and sceptical thinking works, and on the other, to indicate where scientific terms and concepts are used incorrectly by providing explanation and references. This may involve negating something someone has said - for example, Florence said she thought an infra-red camera made the images she saw, when it turned out to be a Kirlian photography process, but the motive is not to demean anyone, only to help clarify. Florence seems to be OK with that - I've suggested alternative possibilities for her experiences, and tried to explain some of the science behind those alternatives, and she's free to do what she likes with that information. I hope it helps in some way.

You have already made it very clear that your position is not to accept anything we offer unless it can be scientifically proven.

I accept the observations presented, but not necessarily the explanations. That's the sceptical view - but for me it's not the be-all and end-all.

And, my point is that science is very over-rated, because because no one can base their entire life on provable facts. There is just not enough information.

Fair enough. I'm not suggesting anyone base their entire life on provable facts. This forum invites contributions on the scientific basis of reincarnation and I feel can help with that.

In the meantime, I would personally like the real members of this Forum to feel safe and free to post their ideas and questions, no matter how ignorant you may consider them.

As far as I'm concerned, they're perfectly safe and free to post anything they like - I'm sure the moderators will ensure that. But there's no shame in being ignorant of things - it just means not knowing. I'm ignorant of much of the field of past-lives and reincarnation - but I'm learning about it - and that's why I'm asking questions about it.

There are many more creative and positive ways to offer information, and if you read more of the posts with an open mind, you would be able to see.

OK - I'm doing the best I can.

 

[stardis]

I think we are straying off topic a bit here.

I know that several members of this forum feel that they have shared a former life together.....and it makes me wonder why ALL of us have gathered together on this forum....maybe many of us have been together in the past???? What do YOU think??

I think that one reason people find themselves on the same forum is simply because they are interested in the same subject and the forum they have joined is one that they find interesting. Does anyone else have any thoughts about why they are on this forum with these specific people?