kstornado11
Senior Registered
I ran across this http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/543355/posts ,by General George S. Patton... I have heard stories about his belief in past lives,and wondered if anyone here had any more info on him??
General George S. Patton thread
- Thread starter kstornado11
- Start date
Midnight.Sapphires
Senior Registered
That's really interesting. Makes me wonder if he's reincarnated and who he might be in this lifetime...?
I saw a photo of him as a youngster. His smile is a dead-ringer to my little brother. But I'd imagine they'd find somebody to be Patton in some WWII past life forum. Another reason, Patton was known for his mouthing off, right? My bro is very quiet. Not that he's shy. Far from it. He thinks everything's boring. He's cynical.
Stars3
Senior Registered
Patton story
I though you might like a little story about Gen. Patton from my book Someone Else's Yesterday;
(the scene takes place at the Civil War battlefield known as "The Wilderness".)
My ears perked up. What followed was a story
from the book, The Pattons, and the setting was the very field in
which we stood. The story goes like this: General Patton was
touring the Wilderness Battlefield along with his wife and two
children. With them this day was a German military attaché,
General Friedrich Von Boetticher. Von Boetticher was a Civil
War buff. Patton described the troop deployment, and the sway
of the battle back and forth across Saunder’s Field. He placed his
two children as Confederate units and his wife (being a Yankee)
as the Union line. Patton stood on a nearby rise where he
declared General Jubal Early had directed the battle. Von
Boetticher disagreed with Patton and a loud argument followed.
An old man that had been with a tour group overheard the
conversation and approached the two men. “The other gentleman
is right,” he told Von Boetticher. “General Early was on
that rise. I was at this battle as a boy.” George was pleased. He’d
had a feeling he’d been there before; now it was confirmed. “Of
course Early stood there,” he declared in triumph. “I saw it
myself!” I had to chuckle as we boarded the bus.
(From SEY page 138 by Jeffrey J. Keene (C) 2003 )
I though you might like a little story about Gen. Patton from my book Someone Else's Yesterday;
(the scene takes place at the Civil War battlefield known as "The Wilderness".)
My ears perked up. What followed was a story
from the book, The Pattons, and the setting was the very field in
which we stood. The story goes like this: General Patton was
touring the Wilderness Battlefield along with his wife and two
children. With them this day was a German military attaché,
General Friedrich Von Boetticher. Von Boetticher was a Civil
War buff. Patton described the troop deployment, and the sway
of the battle back and forth across Saunder’s Field. He placed his
two children as Confederate units and his wife (being a Yankee)
as the Union line. Patton stood on a nearby rise where he
declared General Jubal Early had directed the battle. Von
Boetticher disagreed with Patton and a loud argument followed.
An old man that had been with a tour group overheard the
conversation and approached the two men. “The other gentleman
is right,” he told Von Boetticher. “General Early was on
that rise. I was at this battle as a boy.” George was pleased. He’d
had a feeling he’d been there before; now it was confirmed. “Of
course Early stood there,” he declared in triumph. “I saw it
myself!” I had to chuckle as we boarded the bus.
(From SEY page 138 by Jeffrey J. Keene (C) 2003 )
kstornado11
Senior Registered
Wow Stasr3
I had heard about Patton's belief in former lives, & thought his poem PROVED it... he obviously had many,many past life memories, I wonder if there's any research or perhaps any biographies or even an autobiography ?? I intend to try & find out....
I had heard about Patton's belief in former lives, & thought his poem PROVED it... he obviously had many,many past life memories, I wonder if there's any research or perhaps any biographies or even an autobiography ?? I intend to try & find out....
Don Quixote
New Member
Hannibal
Here is a website that discusses the possibility that Patton was Hannibal, and showing the uncanny parallels between the two lives: http://www.reversespins.com/patton.html.
Here is a website that discusses the possibility that Patton was Hannibal, and showing the uncanny parallels between the two lives: http://www.reversespins.com/patton.html.
kstornado11
Senior Registered
Thanks for that,Don! I definitely need to get that movie!!
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
I think General George Patton has come up several times before on the board. His belief in reincarnation is well known, and has been portrayed in various books, movies and articles--and there is much more that can be read about him on the internet. Indeed, he never had to be convinced. He had memories of ancient battles from his earliest years. However, the reason I bring him up is not for this, as others have memories from childhood--including other famous people. I bring it up because he saw himself always as a warrior, and one who would return again as a warrior when there were great battles to be fought and won. So, I am fascinated by his sense of destiny and direction over the course of many lives. What others may think of such things I do not know. There are those who have come back to the same places or the same fields of endeavor, but somehow there is always an undercurrent idea that one is becoming more "peaceable" and gentle along the way. In contrast to this, Patton would probably say he was becoming sharper and more honed to serve as a warrior in whatever great conflicts arose. For the good, I hope. His poem describing his past lives is worth a read as well:
THROUGH A GLASS, DARKLY
Through the travail of the ages,
Midst the pomp and toil of war,
Have I fought and strove and perished
Countless times upon this star.
In the form of many people
In all panoplies of time
Have I seen the luring vision
Of the Victory Maid, sublime.
I have battled for fresh mammoth,
I have warred for pastures new,
I have listed to the whispers
When the race trek instinct grew.
I have known the call to battle
In each changeless changing shape
From the high souled voice of conscience
To the beastly lust for rape.
I have sinned and I have suffered,
Played the hero and the knave;
Fought for belly, shame, or country,
And for each have found a grave.
I cannot name my battles
For the visions are not clear,
Yet, I see the twisted faces
And I feel the rending spear.
Perhaps I stabbed our Savior
In His sacred helpless side.
Yet, I've called His name in blessing
When after times I died.
In the dimness of the shadows
Where we hairy heathens warred,
I can taste in thought the lifeblood;
We used teeth before the sword.
While in later clearer vision
I can sense the coppery sweat,
Feel the pikes grow wet and slippery
When our Phalanx, Cyrus met.
Hear the rattle of the harness
Where the Persian darts bounced clear,
See their chariots wheel in panic
From the Hoplite's leveled spear.
See the goal grow monthly longer,
Reaching for the walls of Tyre.
Hear the crash of tons of granite,
Smell the quenchless eastern fire.
Still more clearly as a Roman,
Can I see the Legion close,
As our third rank moved in forward
And the short sword found our foes.
Once again I feel the anguish
Of that blistering treeless plain
When the Parthian showered death bolts,
And our discipline was in vain.
I remember all the suffering
Of those arrows in my neck.
Yet, I stabbed a grinning savage
As I died upon my back.
Once again I smell the heat sparks
When my flemish plate gave way
And the lance ripped through my entrails
As on Crecy's field I lay.
In the windless, blinding stillness
Of the glittering tropic sea
I can see the bubbles rising
Where we set the captives free.
Midst the spume of half a tempest
I have heard the bulwarks go
When the crashing, point blank round shot
Sent destruction to our foe.
I have fought with gun and cutlass
On the red and slippery deck
With all Hell aflame within me
And a rope around my neck.
And still later as a General
Have I galloped with Murat
When we laughed at death and numbers
Trusting in the Emperor's Star.
Till at last our star faded,
And we shouted to our doom
Where the sunken road of Ohein
Closed us in it's quivering gloom.
So but now with Tanks a'clatter
Have I waddled on the foe
Belching death at twenty paces,
By the star shell's ghastly glow.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, -- but always me.
And I see not in my blindness
What the objects were I wrought,
But as God rules o'er our bickerings
It was through His will I fought.
So forever in the future,
Shall I battle as of yore,
Dying to be born a fighter,
But to die again, once more.
THROUGH A GLASS, DARKLY
Through the travail of the ages,
Midst the pomp and toil of war,
Have I fought and strove and perished
Countless times upon this star.
In the form of many people
In all panoplies of time
Have I seen the luring vision
Of the Victory Maid, sublime.
I have battled for fresh mammoth,
I have warred for pastures new,
I have listed to the whispers
When the race trek instinct grew.
I have known the call to battle
In each changeless changing shape
From the high souled voice of conscience
To the beastly lust for rape.
I have sinned and I have suffered,
Played the hero and the knave;
Fought for belly, shame, or country,
And for each have found a grave.
I cannot name my battles
For the visions are not clear,
Yet, I see the twisted faces
And I feel the rending spear.
Perhaps I stabbed our Savior
In His sacred helpless side.
Yet, I've called His name in blessing
When after times I died.
In the dimness of the shadows
Where we hairy heathens warred,
I can taste in thought the lifeblood;
We used teeth before the sword.
While in later clearer vision
I can sense the coppery sweat,
Feel the pikes grow wet and slippery
When our Phalanx, Cyrus met.
Hear the rattle of the harness
Where the Persian darts bounced clear,
See their chariots wheel in panic
From the Hoplite's leveled spear.
See the goal grow monthly longer,
Reaching for the walls of Tyre.
Hear the crash of tons of granite,
Smell the quenchless eastern fire.
Still more clearly as a Roman,
Can I see the Legion close,
As our third rank moved in forward
And the short sword found our foes.
Once again I feel the anguish
Of that blistering treeless plain
When the Parthian showered death bolts,
And our discipline was in vain.
I remember all the suffering
Of those arrows in my neck.
Yet, I stabbed a grinning savage
As I died upon my back.
Once again I smell the heat sparks
When my flemish plate gave way
And the lance ripped through my entrails
As on Crecy's field I lay.
In the windless, blinding stillness
Of the glittering tropic sea
I can see the bubbles rising
Where we set the captives free.
Midst the spume of half a tempest
I have heard the bulwarks go
When the crashing, point blank round shot
Sent destruction to our foe.
I have fought with gun and cutlass
On the red and slippery deck
With all Hell aflame within me
And a rope around my neck.
And still later as a General
Have I galloped with Murat
When we laughed at death and numbers
Trusting in the Emperor's Star.
Till at last our star faded,
And we shouted to our doom
Where the sunken road of Ohein
Closed us in it's quivering gloom.
So but now with Tanks a'clatter
Have I waddled on the foe
Belching death at twenty paces,
By the star shell's ghastly glow.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, -- but always me.
And I see not in my blindness
What the objects were I wrought,
But as God rules o'er our bickerings
It was through His will I fought.
So forever in the future,
Shall I battle as of yore,
Dying to be born a fighter,
But to die again, once more.
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Hi Flashback,
You're right on both points, though as to the photo, I see no resemblance in older age. As to the political incorrectness
. And, even more so in the current era than he was then. However, it hurt him back then, and probably makes him even more unacceptable in the current era. Though, for the benefit of more sensitive souls on the board, I should clarify that I am talking only about his propensity to be an unapologetic, straight-forward, plain-talking, brusque, soldier's soldier. He was often crude and "insensitive"--by the more punctilious standards of this modern era. As to anything else in the "political correctness" category, I know nothing but assume that he was probably a person of his era, which is enough to get all of his statues torn down according to the tenets of the current crop of radical snowflakes. Anyhow, he surely deserved his "Old Blood and Guts" label. Such men will always be of infinite value when the chips are down and a true warrior personality is needed, and hard for a "civilized" society to deal with and live with in any other context.
However, my main reason for bringing this thread back up is the contrast between his obvious spirituality and his war-like nature. He was, in fact, a "spiritual" person in many respects. However, as one who believed in reincarnation, he saw the process in his case as aimed at bringing him back for what he was "best" at--the art and science of war. This is what I'm trying to wrap my head around. There have certainly been soldiers who were spiritual. In fact, I am a great admirer of men like Washington, Lee and Jackson. However, most of them looked on war as a duty and something that had to be done. With Patton one finds a man who saw it as both his destiny and his goal in life, and in his lives to come. It kinda upsets the apple cart in terms of my ideas of how the reincarnation process works and what it is supposed to achieve.
Cordially,
S&S
You're right on both points, though as to the photo, I see no resemblance in older age. As to the political incorrectness
. And, even more so in the current era than he was then. However, it hurt him back then, and probably makes him even more unacceptable in the current era. Though, for the benefit of more sensitive souls on the board, I should clarify that I am talking only about his propensity to be an unapologetic, straight-forward, plain-talking, brusque, soldier's soldier. He was often crude and "insensitive"--by the more punctilious standards of this modern era. As to anything else in the "political correctness" category, I know nothing but assume that he was probably a person of his era, which is enough to get all of his statues torn down according to the tenets of the current crop of radical snowflakes. Anyhow, he surely deserved his "Old Blood and Guts" label. Such men will always be of infinite value when the chips are down and a true warrior personality is needed, and hard for a "civilized" society to deal with and live with in any other context.However, my main reason for bringing this thread back up is the contrast between his obvious spirituality and his war-like nature. He was, in fact, a "spiritual" person in many respects. However, as one who believed in reincarnation, he saw the process in his case as aimed at bringing him back for what he was "best" at--the art and science of war. This is what I'm trying to wrap my head around. There have certainly been soldiers who were spiritual. In fact, I am a great admirer of men like Washington, Lee and Jackson. However, most of them looked on war as a duty and something that had to be done. With Patton one finds a man who saw it as both his destiny and his goal in life, and in his lives to come. It kinda upsets the apple cart in terms of my ideas of how the reincarnation process works and what it is supposed to achieve.
Cordially,
S&S
John Tat
Senior Registered
Hi S&S The following is something I wrote that may answer some of your questions
There are true warriors who return again and again
They are warriors of the gods who carry no shame
They remember violent battles and violent deaths
But they always know.. they are blessed
They know by what they see... there is little time for them to rest
With all of the fancy weapons that now exist
Warriors of the Gods know peoples fears of dying are there biggest test
The time is coming when the Gods warriors will return.. and impose there Gods way
On a world in decay
Regards
There are true warriors who return again and again
They are warriors of the gods who carry no shame
They remember violent battles and violent deaths
But they always know.. they are blessed
They know by what they see... there is little time for them to rest
With all of the fancy weapons that now exist
Warriors of the Gods know peoples fears of dying are there biggest test
The time is coming when the Gods warriors will return.. and impose there Gods way
On a world in decay
Regards
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Hi John,
I think this basic sentiment would resonate with Patton. As he says close to the end of his poem:
. . . as God rules o'er our bickerings
It was through His will I fought.
However, I think he would not use "God" in the plural, even though he might rejoice at being part of a group that will impose God's way on a world in decay. But overall, it is a cool poem. Thanks for posting it. Having done so, are you willing to discuss how this relates to you, what you believe is coming, and etc.? As you know, I am pretty well always interested.
Cordially,
S&S
I think this basic sentiment would resonate with Patton. As he says close to the end of his poem:
. . . as God rules o'er our bickerings
It was through His will I fought.
However, I think he would not use "God" in the plural, even though he might rejoice at being part of a group that will impose God's way on a world in decay. But overall, it is a cool poem. Thanks for posting it. Having done so, are you willing to discuss how this relates to you, what you believe is coming, and etc.? As you know, I am pretty well always interested.
Cordially,
S&S
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Hmmm. I also see how Patton--though he might not have any thoughts of the Ancient Egyptian gods--nonetheless fits the pattern you have set forth. Actually, he fits it very, very well. He remembered his past violent battles and violent deaths, he did not seem to be ashamed of any of that, he seemed to believe himself blessed to come back to fight again, he wrote poems about fear and the need to overcome it, and he was there ready to do the job he believed needed to be done. All of this hardly seems like a coincidence, which is probably why you posted your poem, which I am assuming is part of the information you have received. Patton would also seem to be one of the ones you mention, though he was a man of fairly typical Judeo-Christian beliefs (outside of reincarnation).
Very interesting.
S&S
Very interesting.
S&S
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
General Patton writes of fear:
I am that dreadful, blighting thing,
Like rat holes to the flood.
Like rust that gnaws the faultless blade,
Like microbes to the blood.
I know no mercy and no truth,
The young I blight, the old I slay.
Regret stalks darkly in my wake,
And ignominy dogs my way.
Sometimes, in virtuous garb I rove,
With facile talk of easier way;
Seducing where I dare not rape,
Young manhood, from it's honor's sway.
Again, in awesome guise I rush,
Stupendous, through the ranks of war,
Turning to water, with my gaze,
Hearts that, before, no foe could awe.
The maiden who has strayed from right,
To me must pay the mead of shame.
The patriot who betrays his trust,
To me must owe his tarnished name.
I spare no class, nor cult, nor creed,
My course is endless through the year.
I bow all heads and break all hearts,
All owe me homage -- I am FEAR.
I am that dreadful, blighting thing,
Like rat holes to the flood.
Like rust that gnaws the faultless blade,
Like microbes to the blood.
I know no mercy and no truth,
The young I blight, the old I slay.
Regret stalks darkly in my wake,
And ignominy dogs my way.
Sometimes, in virtuous garb I rove,
With facile talk of easier way;
Seducing where I dare not rape,
Young manhood, from it's honor's sway.
Again, in awesome guise I rush,
Stupendous, through the ranks of war,
Turning to water, with my gaze,
Hearts that, before, no foe could awe.
The maiden who has strayed from right,
To me must pay the mead of shame.
The patriot who betrays his trust,
To me must owe his tarnished name.
I spare no class, nor cult, nor creed,
My course is endless through the year.
I bow all heads and break all hearts,
All owe me homage -- I am FEAR.
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
General Patton's "God of Battles"--a very unapologetic statement of the warrior's desire for victory, and his prayer to God, in many different guises through the ages, to give it to him. I cannot help but think that as Patton recites a list of ancient gods, he is thinking back on his own prior lives:
From pride and foolish confidence,
From every waking creed,
From the dread fear of fearing,
Protect us, Lord, and lead.
Great God, who, through the ages,
Has braced the bloodstained hand,
As Saturn, Jove, or Woden
Has led our Warrior band.
Again we seek thy council,
But not in cringing guise,
We whine not for thy mercy,
To slay; God make us wise.
For slaves who shun the issue
Who do not ask thy aid,
To Thee we trust our spirits,
Our bodies, unafraid.
From doubt and fearsome bodings
Still Thou our spirits guard,
Make strong our souls to conquer.
Give us the victory, Lord.
Needless to say, Patton and his language have been challenging to me. However, he made me think of something that I had found quite acceptable in the "here-and-now" context: the division one military writer makes of humans into three groups, based on their innate nature: sheep, sheep-dogs, and wolves. Almost everyone is said to be sheep, which is not intended to be insulting, but to indicate the fact that they are prey in the eyes of those referred to as "wolves"--who may be criminals, military conquerors, Daesh, dictators, or etc. Those who protect the sheep from the wolves are the sheep-dogs--police, military, and etc. Maybe this even goes as far as including the political. In any case, it goes without saying that a dog is closer in nature and heritage to a wolf than he/she is to sheep. As I look at Patton, and also at what John has written, it makes me wonder whether this classification transcends this current life-time. If so, there are three classes of beings shuffling forward, life after life, into the future. And, "wolves" may eventually develop (I hate to use the word "evolve") into sheep-dogs across the course of many lives. Patton's recited lifetimes seem to indicate that. Hmmm. Dogs can go bad, and wolves can be tamed, but sheep are sheep--maybe. If so, perhaps there are only two great groups shuffling forward, with "wolves" just being the less refined foundation of future "sheep-dogs".
I'm going way off into the ozone at this point in terms of speculation. But it does make me wonder.
S&S
From pride and foolish confidence,
From every waking creed,
From the dread fear of fearing,
Protect us, Lord, and lead.
Great God, who, through the ages,
Has braced the bloodstained hand,
As Saturn, Jove, or Woden
Has led our Warrior band.
Again we seek thy council,
But not in cringing guise,
We whine not for thy mercy,
To slay; God make us wise.
For slaves who shun the issue
Who do not ask thy aid,
To Thee we trust our spirits,
Our bodies, unafraid.
From doubt and fearsome bodings
Still Thou our spirits guard,
Make strong our souls to conquer.
Give us the victory, Lord.
Needless to say, Patton and his language have been challenging to me. However, he made me think of something that I had found quite acceptable in the "here-and-now" context: the division one military writer makes of humans into three groups, based on their innate nature: sheep, sheep-dogs, and wolves. Almost everyone is said to be sheep, which is not intended to be insulting, but to indicate the fact that they are prey in the eyes of those referred to as "wolves"--who may be criminals, military conquerors, Daesh, dictators, or etc. Those who protect the sheep from the wolves are the sheep-dogs--police, military, and etc. Maybe this even goes as far as including the political. In any case, it goes without saying that a dog is closer in nature and heritage to a wolf than he/she is to sheep. As I look at Patton, and also at what John has written, it makes me wonder whether this classification transcends this current life-time. If so, there are three classes of beings shuffling forward, life after life, into the future. And, "wolves" may eventually develop (I hate to use the word "evolve") into sheep-dogs across the course of many lives. Patton's recited lifetimes seem to indicate that. Hmmm. Dogs can go bad, and wolves can be tamed, but sheep are sheep--maybe. If so, perhaps there are only two great groups shuffling forward, with "wolves" just being the less refined foundation of future "sheep-dogs".
I'm going way off into the ozone at this point in terms of speculation. But it does make me wonder.
S&S
Cryscat
Senior Member
I've seen the Patton movie and that scene that the link above describes. Patton though he was Hannibal and now I wonder he thought that German General Erwin Rommel was Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus. As for who Patton is now, the one that comes to my mind is Ret. General Tommy Franks. I know Franks was born on June 17, 1945 while Patton died on Dec. 21, 1945, leaving a few months for a crossover. The life patterns of Franks and Patton are similar though not exactly the same. Makes one wonder sometimes.
John Tat
Senior Registered
Hi S&S ... I'm beginning to understand why not only you but others have difficulty in understanding many things .. .. everything is relative to the time you lived an incarnation in... so its impossible for you and others in this day and age and the times we now live in to understand how it was back then.. Patton would have prayed to many gods over many incarnations.. over thousands of years but its very likely he always understood who the true gods were...the gods he served...Most people could not possibly understand sniffing the air before a battle
Before each battle I sniff the air
I always smell that wretched stink of human weakness
Yet I lead my warriors without a care
After a battle being covered from head to toe with your enemies blood
Dying warrior deaths
Lying... dying in stinking mud... stinking of human feces opened up by a lance and in the heat of battle nobody giving me a second glance
As I said its all about the times you were living in.. which is impossible to understand today
When the warriors of the gods return will some and/or many of them be of the times they last incarnated into?.. that is the biggest concern
Will they be modern... evolved warriors... or violent warriors from times of long ago.. only the gods know.. I have talked before about how they will return
Regards
Before each battle I sniff the air
I always smell that wretched stink of human weakness
Yet I lead my warriors without a care
After a battle being covered from head to toe with your enemies blood
Dying warrior deaths
Lying... dying in stinking mud... stinking of human feces opened up by a lance and in the heat of battle nobody giving me a second glance
As I said its all about the times you were living in.. which is impossible to understand today
When the warriors of the gods return will some and/or many of them be of the times they last incarnated into?.. that is the biggest concern
Will they be modern... evolved warriors... or violent warriors from times of long ago.. only the gods know.. I have talked before about how they will return
Regards
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Hi Cryscat,
All you have said is within the realm of possibility, though I'm somewhat less inclined to see a link where there is an overlap of the type you mention. I suppose one thing I would expect from a return of Patton would be someone who was open about their belief, and memory of, past lives. Likewise, poetry ranging from crude to inspiring even if not having the polish of the professional poet. These may have been transient phenomena linked to one particular life, but somehow . . . .
Cordially,
S&S
All you have said is within the realm of possibility, though I'm somewhat less inclined to see a link where there is an overlap of the type you mention. I suppose one thing I would expect from a return of Patton would be someone who was open about their belief, and memory of, past lives. Likewise, poetry ranging from crude to inspiring even if not having the polish of the professional poet
. These may have been transient phenomena linked to one particular life, but somehow . . . .Cordially,
S&S
SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Hi John,
I don't know about the "true gods" part of what you say. Actually, I very much doubt it, but you are entitled to come to your own conclusions on that point. In terms of the rest, I don't think that the era of battle changes some of the basics, though the foes can now kill each other from greater distances. However, it doesn't really matter. Whether your guts are spilled by a lance or by an AK-47, you're going to get the same stench, and are still liable to die lying in the mud. Likewise, though civilized countries try to limit the extent to which blood-lust and unmitigated battle frenzy lead to deeds of cruelty and excess, you can see that new barbarians (like Daesh) are always ready to bring it back to the battle-field. Plus, modern weapons of mass destruction make it even more likely that the huddled non-combatants, including women and children, die as well as the warriors. So, from that standpoint, there is no change. Now as in the past, "War is Hell", as stated by a hell-bringer I do not particularly admire: Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman.
However, I also am very leery of those who try to demonize, denigrate, or deny the completely vital role of the valorous, chivalrous warrior for the right. As I noted in my comments about "sheepdogs" and "wolves" we would be in very sad position without such individuals. This leads to another Patton poem--"Valor"--which I think resonates with much of what we have been discussing:
When all hearts are opened,
And all the secrets known,
When guile and lies are banished,
And subterfuge is gone.
When God rolls up the curtain,
And hidden truths appear,
When the ghastly light of Judgement Day,
Brings past and present near...
Then shall we know what once we knew,
Before wealth dimmed our sight,
That of all sins, the blackest is
The pride which will not fight.
The meek and pious have a place,
And necessary are,
But valor pales their puny rays,
As does the sun a star.
What race of men since time began,
Has ever yet remained,
Who trusted not it's own right hand,
Or from brave deeds refrained?
Yet spite the fact for ages known,
And by all lands displayed,
We still have those who prate of peace,
and say that war is dead.
Yes vandals rise who seek to snatch
The laurels from the brave,
And dare defame heroic dead,
Now filling hero graves.
They speak of those who love,
Like Christ's, exceeds the lust of life
And murderers slain to no avail,
A useless sacrifice.
With infamy without a name,
They mock our fighting youth,
And dare decry great hearts who die,
Battling for right and truth.
Woe to the land which, heeding them,
Lets avarice gain the day,
And trusting gold it's right to hold,
Lets manly might decay.
Let us, while willing yet for peace,
Still keep our valor high,
So when our time of battle comes,
We shall not fear to die.
Make love of life and ease be less,
Make love of country more.
So shall our patriotism be
More than an empty roar.
For death is nothing, comfort less,
Valor is all in all;
Base nations who depart from it,
Shall sure and justly fall.
I think that ending is very, very true, and probably always will be.
Cordially,
S&S
I don't know about the "true gods" part of what you say. Actually, I very much doubt it, but you are entitled to come to your own conclusions on that point. In terms of the rest, I don't think that the era of battle changes some of the basics, though the foes can now kill each other from greater distances. However, it doesn't really matter. Whether your guts are spilled by a lance or by an AK-47, you're going to get the same stench, and are still liable to die lying in the mud. Likewise, though civilized countries try to limit the extent to which blood-lust and unmitigated battle frenzy lead to deeds of cruelty and excess, you can see that new barbarians (like Daesh) are always ready to bring it back to the battle-field. Plus, modern weapons of mass destruction make it even more likely that the huddled non-combatants, including women and children, die as well as the warriors. So, from that standpoint, there is no change. Now as in the past, "War is Hell", as stated by a hell-bringer I do not particularly admire: Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman.
However, I also am very leery of those who try to demonize, denigrate, or deny the completely vital role of the valorous, chivalrous warrior for the right. As I noted in my comments about "sheepdogs" and "wolves" we would be in very sad position without such individuals. This leads to another Patton poem--"Valor"--which I think resonates with much of what we have been discussing:
When all hearts are opened,
And all the secrets known,
When guile and lies are banished,
And subterfuge is gone.
When God rolls up the curtain,
And hidden truths appear,
When the ghastly light of Judgement Day,
Brings past and present near...
Then shall we know what once we knew,
Before wealth dimmed our sight,
That of all sins, the blackest is
The pride which will not fight.
The meek and pious have a place,
And necessary are,
But valor pales their puny rays,
As does the sun a star.
What race of men since time began,
Has ever yet remained,
Who trusted not it's own right hand,
Or from brave deeds refrained?
Yet spite the fact for ages known,
And by all lands displayed,
We still have those who prate of peace,
and say that war is dead.
Yes vandals rise who seek to snatch
The laurels from the brave,
And dare defame heroic dead,
Now filling hero graves.
They speak of those who love,
Like Christ's, exceeds the lust of life
And murderers slain to no avail,
A useless sacrifice.
With infamy without a name,
They mock our fighting youth,
And dare decry great hearts who die,
Battling for right and truth.
Woe to the land which, heeding them,
Lets avarice gain the day,
And trusting gold it's right to hold,
Lets manly might decay.
Let us, while willing yet for peace,
Still keep our valor high,
So when our time of battle comes,
We shall not fear to die.
Make love of life and ease be less,
Make love of country more.
So shall our patriotism be
More than an empty roar.
For death is nothing, comfort less,
Valor is all in all;
Base nations who depart from it,
Shall sure and justly fall.
I think that ending is very, very true, and probably always will be.
Cordially,
S&S
Jim78
Probationary
I used to think like that. I've done nothing but denigrate myself for my roles in life. My experience tells me that the warriors code is childish in a divine light. I still can't solve one mystery however. Why was I incarnated into war again and again? Patton was the person ( that I'm unconnected to as far as I remember ) that I researched the most after I found out about reincarnation. I understand what it is to be destined to be a warrior also but unlike Patton my conscience has been awakened. I can't be a warrior anymore but I don't know how to be anything else.
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SeaAndSky
Senior Registered
Hi Jim,
If you're having attacks of conscience, join the crowd. I'm not sure how many of us find ourselves periodically or even constantly wracked with guilt, but I have my own struggles in this area, as much concerned with my mistakes in this lifetime as any other. I think a lot of what you are saying may indicate that it is time for you to move on to a different type of role in life. Only you can make that determination. However, on the other side of the coin, nothing I have said about wolves and sheepdogs should be taken as negating our own very human ability of self-deception. Wolves may become sheepdogs over the course of lifetimes, but that doesn't mean that everyone who thinks of himself as a sheepdog is telling himself the truth. Many may actually be wolves in sheepdog clothing, or at least retain far too much of the "wolf" in their character. Famous conquerors who believed themselves to be the cutting edge of civilization, bringing culture, virtue, peace and true religion to the benighted savages are legion. Self-deception is always with us, as is valorous/virtuous preening. In fact, of late, "virtue signalling" of various types has become a popular past-time of the media and those in the public eye.
Overall, I can take back nothing I have said. As long as there are wolves, there will be need of sheepdogs to stand between them and the people they would make prey. However, I hope for improvement in wolves over time, and those standing as sheepdogs ain't necessarily perfect, even when they think they are. After all, they would probably be ineffective sheepdogs if they didn't still have a bit of the wolf in them.
Nonetheless, it is unnecessarily shallow to treat wolves as existing only in the realms of violence. Wolves can be anywhere, and can seek to work evil in many ways that do not involve direct physical violence, theft, etc. There have to be sheepdogs to guard in these areas as well. The struggle against oppression needs writers and thinkers as much as it needs soldiers and police. The pen is mightier than the sword, and the person who fights for the right can do so on many fronts that do not involve physical violence. Perhaps you are no longer meant to be a warrior, but you may find it harder to stop being a fighter. The question then becomes what you will fight for, and what will be your tools.
Cordially,
S&S
If you're having attacks of conscience, join the crowd. I'm not sure how many of us find ourselves periodically or even constantly wracked with guilt, but I have my own struggles in this area, as much concerned with my mistakes in this lifetime as any other. I think a lot of what you are saying may indicate that it is time for you to move on to a different type of role in life. Only you can make that determination. However, on the other side of the coin, nothing I have said about wolves and sheepdogs should be taken as negating our own very human ability of self-deception. Wolves may become sheepdogs over the course of lifetimes, but that doesn't mean that everyone who thinks of himself as a sheepdog is telling himself the truth. Many may actually be wolves in sheepdog clothing, or at least retain far too much of the "wolf" in their character. Famous conquerors who believed themselves to be the cutting edge of civilization, bringing culture, virtue, peace and true religion to the benighted savages are legion. Self-deception is always with us, as is valorous/virtuous preening. In fact, of late, "virtue signalling" of various types has become a popular past-time of the media and those in the public eye.
Overall, I can take back nothing I have said. As long as there are wolves, there will be need of sheepdogs to stand between them and the people they would make prey. However, I hope for improvement in wolves over time, and those standing as sheepdogs ain't necessarily perfect, even when they think they are. After all, they would probably be ineffective sheepdogs if they didn't still have a bit of the wolf in them.
Nonetheless, it is unnecessarily shallow to treat wolves as existing only in the realms of violence. Wolves can be anywhere, and can seek to work evil in many ways that do not involve direct physical violence, theft, etc. There have to be sheepdogs to guard in these areas as well. The struggle against oppression needs writers and thinkers as much as it needs soldiers and police. The pen is mightier than the sword, and the person who fights for the right can do so on many fronts that do not involve physical violence. Perhaps you are no longer meant to be a warrior, but you may find it harder to stop being a fighter. The question then becomes what you will fight for, and what will be your tools.
Cordially,
S&S
Cryscat
Senior Member
Hi Cryscat,
All you have said is within the realm of possibility, though I'm somewhat less inclined to see a link where there is an overlap of the type you mention. I suppose one thing I would expect from a return of Patton would be someone who was open about their belief, and memory of, past lives. Likewise, poetry ranging from crude to inspiring even if not having the polish of the professional poet
Cordially,
S&S
Franks has never spoken publicly about any beliefs in reincarnation, so we have no idea if he thinks that way or not. As for the poetry, could be Patton thing and not something that passed on though. I was just looking the military angle which gave me an odd feeling. I am not saying yes or no, but just wondering.
Jim78
Probationary
Hi S&S. I didn't have a conscience up until two years ago. Until then I felt justified in my actions. I don't want to be a wolf. I always thought I was a shepard to be honest. Someone who took the correct course of action. I don't know if I was preening. I enjoyed the attention though. I really believed I was doing good.
Wolves...yeah. When I was faced with the powerful I outflanked them in my current life. I started laughing at them. I said "So little fat fellas in suits? Youse are supposed to be the alpha males of today's world?! Am I the only one who gets the joke here?" Then I ruined him. I thought I was the shepard but I'm afraid that I was the wolf.
I'm not supposed to fight in any capacity anymore. I even extend that to all the challenges life throws at me now. I let them happen. I don't oppose them. I still get frustrated with myself for formulating strategies and anticipating warfare though. I feel I'm just a negative person.
Wolves...yeah. When I was faced with the powerful I outflanked them in my current life. I started laughing at them. I said "So little fat fellas in suits? Youse are supposed to be the alpha males of today's world?! Am I the only one who gets the joke here?" Then I ruined him. I thought I was the shepard but I'm afraid that I was the wolf.
I'm not supposed to fight in any capacity anymore. I even extend that to all the challenges life throws at me now. I let them happen. I don't oppose them. I still get frustrated with myself for formulating strategies and anticipating warfare though. I feel I'm just a negative person.
KenJ
Moderator Emeritus
Jim, it takes awhile to move in the direction you seem to be headed. I just read the first few pages of a new book I received today where it spoke of the differences between Intellect (and intellectuals), Intelligence, and wisdom. Intellect is the ability to grasp a concept where intelligence adds judgement, "An Intellectual's work begins and ends with ideas". Only after adding judgement, knowledge and experience can you reach wisdom where there is a balance. "Wisdom requires self-discipline and an understanding of the realities of the world, including the limitations of one's own experience and of reason itself. The opposite of Intellect is dullness or slowness, but the opposite of wisdom is foolishness, which is more dangerous." Given this continuum, you can perhaps see what I mean by my comment in the first sentence. At some point I can see you attaining the judgement that the judge displayed in one of your previous posts and forgiving yourself.
I've been a cocky youth, a young man with a chip-on-his-shoulder, a know-it-all type A jerk, and probably still retain too many of those qualities at this time in this lifetime. I'm learning as I listen to the Intellectuals try to influence the direction of my Country. I think of the civilians in North Korea who believe that their leader is God and the intellectuals in my country who declare that our president is the Devil and wonder how much reality I am truly aware of myself. The current sexual abuse portion of "abuse of power" is being exploited in an attempt by these intellectuals without seeing how vulnerable they are to their own professed positions, a shallowness similar to the first part of the continuum I spoke of earlier. To think that a person can get stuck somewhere along that continuum and trying to "perfect" that particular position, thinking that it is the intended destination, perhaps for their lifetime.
I become frightened when I see young intellectuals advocate the greatness of socialism without a clue of the inevitable outcome that is easily seen in cities, states, and countries in nearly every period in history. I fear that our fragile Republic can be lost to them through our structure that has our votes having equal weight and realize that they see me as a racist bigot because of the color of my skin or the area of the country I live in. What I'm getting at is that these same fears that can be aroused between people because of unfamiliarity, or new understanding, can occur within a single person when they realize something outside of what is familiar to them. Your recognition that perfecting your "combat skills" might not be the direction for the greatest good is a step in the right direction in my opinion, despite the feelings you have yet to resolve. As for Patton, maybe we need a relic to remind us of the difference between an objective and a direction, he is very good at playing that particular character at different times when it is appropriate in history as the grand theatrical performance unfolds.
An aside: I've spent a bit of time thinking about this today which led me to some interesting memories. I recalled my time in the National Guard as a teenager sixty some years ago where I played with war-toys. I guess that the conversation about war, wolves, and sheepdogs led me there. I always considered myself a sheepdog, but I wonder...
I've been a cocky youth, a young man with a chip-on-his-shoulder, a know-it-all type A jerk, and probably still retain too many of those qualities at this time in this lifetime. I'm learning as I listen to the Intellectuals try to influence the direction of my Country. I think of the civilians in North Korea who believe that their leader is God and the intellectuals in my country who declare that our president is the Devil and wonder how much reality I am truly aware of myself. The current sexual abuse portion of "abuse of power" is being exploited in an attempt by these intellectuals without seeing how vulnerable they are to their own professed positions, a shallowness similar to the first part of the continuum I spoke of earlier. To think that a person can get stuck somewhere along that continuum and trying to "perfect" that particular position, thinking that it is the intended destination, perhaps for their lifetime.
I become frightened when I see young intellectuals advocate the greatness of socialism without a clue of the inevitable outcome that is easily seen in cities, states, and countries in nearly every period in history. I fear that our fragile Republic can be lost to them through our structure that has our votes having equal weight and realize that they see me as a racist bigot because of the color of my skin or the area of the country I live in. What I'm getting at is that these same fears that can be aroused between people because of unfamiliarity, or new understanding, can occur within a single person when they realize something outside of what is familiar to them. Your recognition that perfecting your "combat skills" might not be the direction for the greatest good is a step in the right direction in my opinion, despite the feelings you have yet to resolve. As for Patton, maybe we need a relic to remind us of the difference between an objective and a direction, he is very good at playing that particular character at different times when it is appropriate in history as the grand theatrical performance unfolds.
An aside: I've spent a bit of time thinking about this today which led me to some interesting memories. I recalled my time in the National Guard as a teenager sixty some years ago where I played with war-toys. I guess that the conversation about war, wolves, and sheepdogs led me there. I always considered myself a sheepdog, but I wonder...
Jim78
Probationary
Well I hope I can change Ken. I do look at my past behaviour as foolishness. I had the intellect and the intelligence to act effectively, but I hadn't acquired the wisdom I have now. The judge just didn't want to lose control of her court, she knew a threat was just going to inflame me. I don't know how to forgive myself but, even worse, part of me still thrives on conflict in spite of everything I've learned.
Part of what I did with the powerful was unmask what everyone thought was evil. I discovered that they were actually innocents, so countries are being run by neither God nor the devil. They are only run by people whom the majority of the world completely misunderstand their nature. If I had continued fighting evil men like them would have been backed into a corner and you can guess what happens when boy's with nuclear toy's feel threatened. That's why I downed guns even though it meant I was forgoing fame, wealth and love. I did it for the greater good. That was the first step on the road to this higher wisdom that I've acquired. It make's sense. I couldn't foresee my creating great evil in my past live's because the prospect of war wasn't so absolutely destructive. That was a good decision I think, but it's almost impossible to change my thinking in general.
I used to feel dismayed at peoples directions or shifting viewpoints, but nowadays I stay out of life's way. I actually spent years before I fought evil staying out of life's way. The only reason I engaged with it was because I was in love. I'd had enough of fighting evil's done to me in my youth. I'd just relaxed into work and family. Yet when conflict came my way I went on the offensive. Even now I go on the offensive in my mind, I just don't act on it anymore. Patton didn't feel the need to change but maybe Patton and myself can't change. If that's true I'm screwed, what with my new perspective.
Victory in conflict can be so satisfying Ken. I'm not as old as you but I remember my victories and still get an adrenaline rush out of them even though I know they were wrong. There's a fascination in conflict just as you were fascinated by the weaponry you used. That's why I'm in conflict with myself. I'm aware that I need to change but I don't know how to change. Nobody wants to be the wolf do they?
Part of what I did with the powerful was unmask what everyone thought was evil. I discovered that they were actually innocents, so countries are being run by neither God nor the devil. They are only run by people whom the majority of the world completely misunderstand their nature. If I had continued fighting evil men like them would have been backed into a corner and you can guess what happens when boy's with nuclear toy's feel threatened. That's why I downed guns even though it meant I was forgoing fame, wealth and love. I did it for the greater good. That was the first step on the road to this higher wisdom that I've acquired. It make's sense. I couldn't foresee my creating great evil in my past live's because the prospect of war wasn't so absolutely destructive. That was a good decision I think, but it's almost impossible to change my thinking in general.
I used to feel dismayed at peoples directions or shifting viewpoints, but nowadays I stay out of life's way. I actually spent years before I fought evil staying out of life's way. The only reason I engaged with it was because I was in love. I'd had enough of fighting evil's done to me in my youth. I'd just relaxed into work and family. Yet when conflict came my way I went on the offensive. Even now I go on the offensive in my mind, I just don't act on it anymore. Patton didn't feel the need to change but maybe Patton and myself can't change. If that's true I'm screwed, what with my new perspective.
Victory in conflict can be so satisfying Ken. I'm not as old as you but I remember my victories and still get an adrenaline rush out of them even though I know they were wrong. There's a fascination in conflict just as you were fascinated by the weaponry you used. That's why I'm in conflict with myself. I'm aware that I need to change but I don't know how to change. Nobody wants to be the wolf do they?
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