How much of this is just wishful thinking and self consolation?

[JustinTime]

I might ruffle a few feathers here, but I wanted to put out a thought I had regarding the detailed discussions about soul evolution, reincarnation, planning lives, karma, etc....

How much of this is just us (especially people in difficult circumstances) finding consolation for themselves and just wishful thinking?

There are a lot of meaningful discussions here: the debate of spirituality v. materialism, rich v. poor, abuse v. power, male v. female, etc.... People here are obviously deep thinkers and many are facing life issues beyond their own control. They (myself included) are looking for consolation, comfort, a sense of belonging, and importantly, a deep sense of "justice" (ie if I am poor in this life I deserve to be rich in the next life).

Hence, topics such as reincarnation, soul planning, soul evolution, karma, etc... popped up to more or less, explain these injustices in the world such as poverty, abuse, disability, etc...

But I wonder... do we have any evidence that our soul or our consciousness actually survives death and lives on? Do we have any proof that life should be fair, even on a spiritual level? What if the universe is cruel, and that what happen is just what is, and if you've unfortunately drawn bad circumstances in this life, too bad so sad boohoo cry me a river the universe doesn't care.

It's just that the theories of soul evolution and pre-life planning etc... is beginning to sound like, to me, an desperate attempt to "fill in the injustices" before our eyes. We want a sense of fairness, a sense of equality, a feeling that every person deserves happiness. But what if there just isn't enough happiness to go around? And what if there is no next life to make up for this?

Honestly, people in bad circumstances, start comforting themselves with believing that their reward is in another life, or an afterlife, or it was their karma. But to me, it just doesn't make any sense. Honestly, what soul would pick a hard life full of poverty and disability? I bet if each and every one of you had a chance to reincarnate into whatever body you wanted to in the next life, not a single person would pick a body that was born into poverty or disability (and admit it, you know deep down inside that I'm right). Not a single one. At the end of the day, everyone can say that it is the hardships that mold us, give life meaning, etc... bla bla bla, but if you really had a choice between a wealthy spoiled brat with all of his needs met, versus a disabled or poor body in a 3rd world country, who would, in his/her right mind, pick the latter over the former?

 

[SeaAndSky]

Hi Justintime,

The people here come from many backgrounds and have been molded by many influences. However, there are very few that have not dealt with the atheist/materialist paradigm as part of their lives and intellectual/spiritual development. How could we avoid doing this? We are raised in the same environment and subject to the same influences as you, and (judging from diction, depth of thought, and general intelligence displayed in postings) the vast majority of long-term posters appear to be not only intelligent but well-educated. The last characteristic means that they were immersed in materialist dogma and viewpoint from early childhood through college and often graduate level degrees. Some are, in addition, trained in the sciences and/or have other advanced degrees. E.g., my undergraduate degree was in Physics, and I believe that Eowyn is involved in the biological sciences (though my memory is a bit fuzzy on that). One way or another, we have been confronted with the atheist/materialist paradigm, often have accepted it at one time, and ultimately found it lacking--at least on the materialist side. (Beliefs related to the existence and nature of a deity are more varied). So, at the least, we cannot be characterized as simple-minded.

Also, though often derided by the more close-minded materialists, there has been a quiet revolution going on for some time in terms of research/exploration into what were once "forbidden" areas. One might start with Moody, and his research into Near Death Experiences (NDEs), where people brought back accounts of things that were occurring while they were clinically dead, not only from the vicinity of their bodies, but often at locations where they could not have been physically present or had any knowledge of what was going on. This is one trail most of the people here are aware of. You definitely should also be aware of the research done by Ian Stevenson into knowledge of past lives in young children as proof of reincarnation. The list could go on, and all that is being found has, of course, its detractors on the materialist side. So, there is plenty for you to look into in order to make up your own mind. However, no one here is on a mission to convince you. If you ask, we can provide you with avenues and suggestions for good books or resources, but that's about it. If you are interested you will do your own research.

BTW, your fairly constant repetition of your desire for "justice" for yourself, and apparently for everyone else, betrays your youth. There is a famous quote, which I hope someone will look up for me, that goes something like "only a person of less than two score years hopes for justice rather than mercy". As your own mistakes and wrongs in life add up, you will find that you would definitely prefer mercy for yourself. The hitch is, you can't have it both ways. Mercy for you means mercy for the "other". Consequently, when you do come to the time when the idea of "justice" for yourself is not nearly as attractive as it used to be, you will also have to deal with the fact that if you want to be let off the hook yourself, the "other" is entitled to the same.

Cordially,
S&S

PS--On the last thought, most seem to "split the baby" and decide that they and those that do not much exceed them in terms of flaws and foibles are entitled to mercy. However, they also remain happy to see the REALLY bad people (i.e., those who exceed them in evil by a safe margin) punished. As you can appreciate, this creates a bit of a floating/subjective standard.

 

[baro-san]

... Honestly, what soul would pick a hard life full of poverty and disability? I bet if each and every one of you had a chance to reincarnate into whatever body you wanted to in the next life, not a single person would pick a body that was born into poverty or disability (and admit it, you know deep down inside that I'm right). Not a single one. At the end of the day, everyone can say that it is the hardships that mold us, give life meaning, etc... bla bla bla, but if you really had a choice between a wealthy spoiled brat with all of his needs met, versus a disabled or poor body in a 3rd world country, who would, in his/her right mind, pick the latter over the former?

I hesitate to reply, because my previous replies didn't make a dent in your views about the subject.

Anyway ... I don't believe that hardships are a necessity, or they are a more efficient way of progress for the soul. Also, what we think here, in the physical, isn't the same we're thinking there, in the non-physical, so, after-death, we'll be kindly amused of our thinking, and tantrums as humans.

And, I don't believe there is a meaningful "debate of spirituality vs, materialism", as they aren't opposite or disjunct.

There is also the point of us creating our reality through our beliefs, thoughts, fears, ... If that's what we believe, then that's what we experience. It isn't a punishment, but a universal law in action.

 

[baro-san]

This is a small collection of Seth-Roberts quotes I recently read and thought about:

"Your spirit joined itself with flesh, and in flesh, to experience a world of incredible richness, to help create a
dimension of reality of colors and of form. Your spirit was born in flesh to enrich a marvelous area of sense
awareness, to feel energy made into corporeal form. You are here to use, enjoy, and express yourself through the
body. You are here to aid in the great expansion of consciousness, You are not here to cry about the miseries of
the human condition, but to change them when you find them not to your liking through the joy, strength and
vitality that is within you; to create the spirit as faithfully and beautifully as you can in flesh. "
Session 615, Page 26-27


"In a manner of speaking, the conscious mind is a window through which you look outward -- and looking
outward, perceive the fruits of your inner mind. "
Session 615, Page 27


"Your own conscious beliefs are the most important suggestions that you receive. All other ideas are rejected or
accepted according to whether or not you believe they are true, in line with the steady conscious chattering that
goes on within your mind most of the day -- the suggestions given to you by yourself. "
Session 615, Page 27


"Since it is the function of the conscious mind to assess physical experience, it [the inner self] hasn’t been able to
do its job properly. If the inner portions of the self were supposed to have that responsibility, then you would not
need a conscious mind."
Session 615, Page 27


"There are no accidents in cosmic terms, or in terms of the world as you know it. Your beliefs grow as surely in
time and space as flowers do."
Session 615, Page 28


"Remember, even false beliefs will seem to be justified in terms of physical data, since your experience in the
outside world is the materialization of those beliefs. So you must work with the raw material of your ideas, even
while your sense data may tell you that a given belief is obviously a truth. To change your experience or any
portion of it, then, you must change your ideas. Since you have been forming your own reality all along, the
results will follow naturally."
Session 615, Page 29


"You are not your ideas, nor even your thoughts. You are the self who experiences them "
Session 615, Page 29 ​

 

[SeaAndSky]

Hi Baro-san,

The only conflicts between Materialism and Spirituality that arise are due to the denial by the materialist of the existence of the spiritual and non-material (as that term is usually understood). The person who believes in both the (a) material AND (b) spiritual/non-material, is not forced by that belief to disbelieve in the material aspects of the universe. The converse is not true for the hard core materialist.

Cordially,
S&S

PS--I really like the first quote given above.

 

[Guillaume_D]

If you see memories of your past lives (by regression or other ways), there is no doubts anymore. For me reincarnation is not a belief, it is reality. Try to experiment yourself and you will understand.
I don't know yet for sure what is between lives. I'm just beginning to explore this field. But I guess the souls don't completely choose their future lives. That's why mostly they're not as happy as they could be.

 

[JustinTime]

I just cannot wait to see people "who have it all in this world" like Trump, Putin, Wall-Street bankers, models, etc... get to experience the polar opposite of their status and wealth in their next lives - i.e. unpopularity, bullying, and poverty.

That would be fair!

 

[Native Son]

Just intime,

You cannot be in time, but out of time to truly understand life. Truth is conditional and solitary. If you could really see the predicament of those you named as fortunate, you would not consider them fortunate. Because these are in dire straits. These souls, and their kind, are being tested the hardest. Their fortunes of fame, money, and power are stumbling blocks to them, but they are too blind to see it, because they have no true philosophy in them.

 

[baro-san]

You guys should get acquainted with how we create / attract what we think of, including what we fear, what we hate. That might give you a hint why you suffer. Maybe that's your current life's lesson to learn.

 

[SeaAndSky]

Hi JustinTime,

Unfortunately, no assurances we can give you about the fact that the universe has rules and governing principles that are going to make it all come out right in the end seem able to assuage your own rage and resentment towards those you see as having it better than yourself and/or basking in their good looks, wealth and/or power. Nothing we can say will make you the least bit happier until you conquer this rage and resentment.

After peeling away various complaints against the universe and other rationales you put up, a lot of this seems to come down to the fact that other people have what you want and don't have. If I am being unjust in characterizing the situation this way I apologize and hope to have you set me straight. However, a lot of the reason for people getting themselves tied in knots over such things is that they fail to look at its root: a false sense of entitlement.

If I'm at a 4-way stop and someone goes when it was my turn to do so, I might be unhappy or even angry because I KNOW I was ENTITLED to go first by law. If they were entitled to go first under the law, I'm not bothered because I KNOW I wasn't ENTITLED, they were. So, what makes you think you were ENTITLED to have what these other people have? How do you KNOW this? Was it in a contract you signed somewhere? Is there a law written down somewhere that I can look up that makes you ENTITLED and them not ENTITLED? Where does this presumption of knowledge come from? If you have grown up in a privileged environment in a first world country you are already exceedingly blessed when compared to someone growing up in a hovel in a third world shanty town. Were you ENTITLED to be where you are as compared to them? How do you KNOW this? If you can tell me why you were ENTITLED to grow up in relative wealth and comfort instead of some starving child elsewhere, then perhaps you can say how you KNOW you are ENTITLED to what the people you are angry with have rather than them.

Get over this. We do not KNOW who is ENTITLED to what in this life in any kind of absolute sense. Yes, if we know they broke the law to get where they are, that is something to be unhappy about, just like the person who went out of turn at a 4-way stop. But you seem to be angry just because people are better off in some way, not because they committed some wrong to get there. If everyone follows your model we will all hate and resent everyone who has more than we have in one area or another. The whole world will be a seething pool of hatred and we will be lucky to get through the day before the nukes start flying. We cannot KNOW who is ENTITLED to what in most cases. Perhaps the "have it alls" are abusing what they have received and will get a turn in a third world country or worse to teach them a lesson. And perhaps you, due to your lack of gratitude for what you have, will also need a lifetime as a starving oppressed peon in North Korea to make you more appreciative of the enormous privileges and wealth you have just by virtue of living in freedom in the first world.

Cordially,
S&S

 

[JustinTime]

Hi JustinTime,

Unfortunately, no assurances we can give you about the fact that the universe has rules and governing principles that are going to make it all come out right in the end seem able to assuage your own rage and resentment towards those you see as having it better than yourself and/or basking in their good looks, wealth and/or power. Nothing we can say will make you the least bit happier until you conquer this rage and resentment.

After peeling away various complaints against the universe and other rationales you put up, a lot of this seems to come down to the fact that other people have what you want and don't have. If I am being unjust in characterizing the situation this way I apologize and hope to have you set me straight. However, a lot of the reason for people getting themselves tied in knots over such things is that they fail to look at its root: a false sense of entitlement.

If I'm at a 4-way stop and someone goes when it was my turn to do so, I might be unhappy or even angry because I KNOW I was ENTITLED to go first by law. If they were entitled to go first under the law, I'm not bothered because I KNOW I wasn't ENTITLED, they were. So, what makes you think you were ENTITLED to have what these other people have? How do you KNOW this? Was it in a contract you signed somewhere? Is there a law written down somewhere that I can look up that makes you ENTITLED and them not ENTITLED? Where does this presumption of knowledge come from? If you have grown up in a privileged environment in a first world country you are already exceedingly blessed when compared to someone growing up in a hovel in a third world shanty town. Were you ENTITLED to be where you are as compared to them? How do you KNOW this? If you can tell me why you were ENTITLED to grow up in relative wealth and comfort instead of some starving child elsewhere, then perhaps you can say how you KNOW you are ENTITLED to what the people you are angry with have rather than them.

Get over this. We do not KNOW who is ENTITLED to what in this life in any kind of absolute sense. Yes, if we know they broke the law to get where they are, that is something to be unhappy about, just like the person who went out of turn at a 4-way stop. But you seem to be angry just because people are better off in some way, not because they committed some wrong to get there. If everyone follows your model we will all hate and resent everyone who has more than we have in one area or another. The whole world will be a seething pool of hatred and we will be lucky to get through the day before the nukes start flying. We cannot KNOW who is ENTITLED to what in most cases. Perhaps the "have it alls" are abusing what they have received and will get a turn in a third world country or worse to teach them a lesson. And perhaps you, due to your lack of gratitude for what you have, will also need a lifetime as a starving oppressed peon in North Korea to make you more appreciative of the enormous privileges and wealth you have just by virtue of living in freedom in the first world.

Cordially,
S&S

S&S, thanks for your long answer. I don't have a problem with people getting more than others, even if it is from birth conditions. What I do have a problem is when people who have it better than others start abusing their privilege to make life even more miserable for less fortunate people EVEN when they clearly don't need to do this, but just to boost their ego. Examples of this include:

1. Rich people who treat poor, hardworking people like crap and fail to see the luck element in their success, and failing to give back and help others reach success (Wall Street executives, CEOs)
2. Beautiful / attractive people taking advantage of others and getting away with it just because of their looks
3. People in positions of power making life miserable for others just because they can do it (ie Hitler, Kim Jung Un, etc...)
4. People engaging in racial discrimination (ie white supremacists, Trump, Hitler) to boost their own standing while making others absolutely miserable, even when they didn't have to do this in the first place.
5. Parents who abuse their kids because kids are too young to fight back.
6. People making fun and abusing the disabled
7. Corrupt officials stealing money from programs like Red Cross, etc...

I have a problem when people tend to misuse their positions of power or privilege, without being grateful for it, to go out of their way to make others' lives miserable, when they could have used that same influence to help others. That's what I have a problem with. I see too much of it in daily life, and the people in power / money get away with it. In fact, their lives become even BETTER, and luck continues to follow them throughout their entire life.

Yes I do have a problem with that.

 

[Native Son]

S&S, thanks for your long answer. I don't have a problem with people getting more than others, even if it is from birth conditions. What I do have a problem is when people who have it better than others start abusing their privilege to make life even more miserable for less fortunate people EVEN when they clearly don't need to do this, but just to boost their ego. Examples of this include:

1. Rich people who treat poor, hardworking people like crap and fail to see the luck element in their success, and failing to give back and help others reach success (Wall Street executives, CEOs)
2. Beautiful / attractive people taking advantage of others and getting away with it just because of their looks
3. People in positions of power making life miserable for others just because they can do it (ie Hitler, Kim Jung Un, etc...)
4. People engaging in racial discrimination (ie white supremacists, Trump, Hitler) to boost their own standing while making others absolutely miserable, even when they didn't have to do this in the first place.
5. Parents who abuse their kids because kids are too young to fight back.
6. People making fun and abusing the disabled
7. Corrupt officials stealing money from programs like Red Cross, etc...

I have a problem when people tend to misuse their positions of power or privilege, without being grateful for it, to go out of their way to make others' lives miserable, when they could have used that same influence to help others. That's what I have a problem with. I see too much of it in daily life, and the people in power / money get away with it. In fact, their lives become even BETTER, and luck continues to follow them throughout their entire life.

Yes I do have a problem with that.

If you have a problem with that, what are you doing about it?

Worthy of honor is he who does no injustice, and of more than twofold honor, if he not only does no injustice himself, but hinders others from doing any; the first may count as one man, the second is worth many men, because he informs the rulers of the injustice of others. And yet more highly to be esteemed is he who co- operates with the rulers in correcting the citizens as far as he can–he shall be proclaimed the great and perfect citizen, and bear away the palm of virtue.

Pleasure is an object of desire, pain of avoidance; and the absence of pain is to be preferred to pain, but not to pleasure. There are infinite kinds and degrees of both of them, and we choose the life which has more pleasure and avoid that which has less; but we do not choose that life in which the elements of pleasure are either feeble or equally balanced with pain. All the lives which we desire are pleasant; the choice of any others is due to inexperience. Now there are four lives–the temperate, the rational, the courageous, the healthful; and to these let us oppose four others–the intemperate, the foolish, the cowardly, the diseased. The temperate life has gentle pains and pleasures and placid desires, the intemperate life has violent delights, and still more violent desires. And the pleasures of the temperate exceed the pains, while the pains of the intemperate exceed the pleasures. But if this is true, none are voluntarily intemperate, but all who lack temperance are either ignorant or wanting in self-control: for men always choose the life which (as they think) exceeds in pleasure. The wise, the healthful, the courageous life have a similar advantage–they also exceed their opposites in pleasure. And, generally speaking, the life of virtue is far more pleasurable and honorable, fairer and happier far, than the life of vice.

Honor is not to be given to the fair body, or to the strong or the swift or the tall, or to the healthy body (although many may think otherwise), any more than to their opposites; but the mean states of all these habits are by far the safest and most moderate; for the one extreme makes the soul braggart and insolent, and the other, illiberal and base; and money, and property, and distinction all go to the same tune. The excess of any of these things is apt to be a source of hatreds and divisions among states and individuals; and the defect of them is commonly a cause of slavery. And, therefore, I would not have any one fond of heaping up riches for the sake of his children, in order that he may leave them as rich as possible. For the possession of great wealth is of no use, either to them or to the state.

 

[SeaAndSky]

S&S, thanks for your long answer. I don't have a problem with people getting more than others, even if it is from birth conditions. What I do have a problem is when people who have it better than others start abusing their privilege to make life even more miserable for less fortunate people EVEN when they clearly don't need to do this, but just to boost their ego. Examples of this include:

Agreed Overall!

1. Rich people who treat poor, hardworking people like crap and fail to see the luck element in their success, and failing to give back and help others reach success (Wall Street executives, CEOs)
2. Beautiful / attractive people taking advantage of others and getting away with it just because of their looks
3. People in positions of power making life miserable for others just because they can do it (ie Hitler, Kim Jung Un, etc...)
4. People engaging in racial discrimination (ie white supremacists, Trump, Hitler) to boost their own standing while making others absolutely miserable, even when they didn't have to do this in the first place.
5. Parents who abuse their kids because kids are too young to fight back.
6. People making fun and abusing the disabled
7. Corrupt officials stealing money from programs like Red Cross, etc...

Agreed Overall! However, you do need to prune out partisan references to contemporary politics, as we're supposed to avoid that kind of thing--it can create a lot of bad blood, lead to flame wars, gets too far away from the topic of reincarnation, violates board rules, would end up destroying the board if it got out of hand, etc. etc. Also, I'm not sure you are not lumping the good in with the bad in some places. E.g., I don't think that all CEOs do the things you complain of in paragraph 1.

I have a problem when people tend to misuse their positions of power or privilege, without being grateful for it, to go out of their way to make others' lives miserable, when they could have used that same influence to help others. That's what I have a problem with. I see too much of it in daily life, and the people in power / money get away with it. In fact, their lives become even BETTER, and luck continues to follow them throughout their entire life.

Agreed Overall! However, though a disconcerting number do seem (at least by outward appearances) to have it their way all the way through life, not all do. The falls of the rich and mighty are tabloid fodder and do happen, perhaps more often than we realize.

Yes I do have a problem with that.

Neither do I overall. Misusing advantages and wealth is objectionable, and is quite different from objecting to the mere fact that some have more than others in terms of what are considered to be the "good" things of life. This leaves out questions of whether and how much to even out things via governmental action--i.e., using taxes and government programs, etc. to smooth out the differences between the haves and have nots. But that gets into much different topics, and once again takes us very quickly into political discourse with all the problems that entails in terms of Board rules and cohesion.

Cordially,
S&S

PS--Agreement and vehemence are two different things. I can definitely sympathize with your feelings on these things, but I'm not sure that I can summon your level of vehemence. Perhaps that is because I think that the world has probably always had these problems, and that they are (if anything) less now than they used to be. Perhaps it is just because age cools the passions somewhat. Either way, as Baro-san and Native Son and others have pointed out on this thread, given the fact that there are problems in the world and seemingly always have been, the real question becomes what we can do about this--personally and corporately. How do we make ourselves better and what can we do in our sphere of action to make things better overall? Outrage may fuel change, but without wisdom and compassion to guide it, it is likely to harm more than it helps.

 

[WriteNow]

Anything, including atheism could be at least partially self-consolation.

 

[Jim78]

How do you know a model, for instance 'deserves' a harder life the next time. I've worked for a few models and and rich and powerful people in my time and many of them were the nicest people one could meet. How have you arrived at the conclusion of who deserves justice Justin? They have their problems just like everyone else.

 

[JustinTime]

How do you know a model, for instance 'deserves' a harder life the next time. I've worked for a few models and and rich and powerful people in my time and many of them were the nicest people one could meet. How have you arrived at the conclusion of who deserves justice Justin? They have their problems just like everyone else.

Not everyone's problems are equal. A model with "money problems" but in all other aspects has a life full of wealth, love, and peer support and social belonging is no doubt far superior life than a minority kid who is discriminated against his entire life and cannot marry or find a decent job to support a most basic living. You are absolutely delusional if you think everyone's life is of equal difficulty or that "everyone just has problems." Sure, everyone has problems but why are some problems so big and some so insignificant? I'm sure Trump tripped over a banana peel could be considered a "problem" but that is by no means the same "problem" as the innocent boy born in Iraq who has his limbs bombed away despite him not having done a single bad thing in life.

Once again, all this just sounds like an effort for self-consolation.

All I want to know, is how is it decided, who will be born in a rich family, who will be born handsome, who will be born with high social status, in a new life? What can I do in this life to increase the chances that I can be born in good circumstances so I can achieve my dreams and live a fulfilling, meaningful, rich (both materially and emotionally) life next time around? I've been discriminated against my entire life through absolutely no fault of my own and I want to take a "life off" in my next incarnation and just live an easy, happy life.

 

[KenJ]

Justin, would you really like it if everyone was absolutely equal in everything? Really think about it rather than simply responding as if you are suffering beyond other people's ability to understand. No bright ideas, no great experiences, no special loves, no feelings of special accomplishments, same ol' same ol' everyday existence everyday - or a step up from there that was practiced by a few leaders from the past like Lenin or Mao produced for their people. I would imagine that most of us have had feelings of "Why me?" in our lives (especially as children), with those feelings perhaps reappearing periodically.

All I want to know, is how is it decided, who will be born in a rich family, who will be born handsome, who will be born with high social status, in a new life?

There are only speculations, Either it is random, You decide, or Another force/group decides - what difference does it make, are you looking for someone to blame for your circumstances? Your statement that this is ALL you want want to know and then following it immediately with yet another question indicates a somewhat scattered thought process that oozes of self pity. No one here can give you the answer, all that we can offer is the personal answers we derived for ourselves which have been offered to you and have then been rejected as insufficient.
I doubt you have read this far, but if you have, I'd like to know if you think that everyone would end up the same if the all started out originally exactly the same in all respects? Perhaps reflect upon why you think that they would be either the same or different at the end of their lives and see if you can come up with an equally specific answer as the one you are now asking.

I don't know if it would help you, but what I did when I was in that situation as an adult was to volunteer. I volunteered at two County Agencies for several years while in college and later at a County Department where I furthered my knowledge in computer programming where I was hired and retired twenty-five years later. I found it interesting that it was so difficult to work as a volunteer, most places did not want me because they felt that they lacked control over me, I had not thought of that before that.

I hesitate to add my actions at the darkest part of my life (age 33), perhaps it will help. When I arrived home after six months hospitalization and rehabilitation, with no job, a wife that no longer wanted me, the inability to use three of my limbs, my parents and children feeling lost and helpless, not knowing how long I'd live, no future - total crap with no way out. About eight months later when I realized that my wife, who I was totally dependent upon, was planning to leave me, I hit bottom - well maybe you think your position was worse, I don't know. Anyway, my insides were in constant turmoil and I had to do something, anything to get beyond where I was at the time. I could not concentrate, my grades started falling because I could not concentrate and the course-work lost importance. I knew that it was my life, my challenge, my responsibility, but what could I do, and how could I do it with my limited abilities?

I could no longer function in that environment, I managed to get further rehabilitation in a hospital far away from my home, a place that offered a possible solution to some of my physical limitations, a last-ditch effort to see if there was indeed no regaining the use of my legs and arm or the spasticity that further complicated my life. I essentially ran away from home to find myself. A miracle happened there, a nurse, who had been raped twice in her life, who had never had a "safe" relationship, saw me as someone to have that experience with. Then a second miracle happened, a young girl, the age of my oldest daughter, needed someone to confide in - I had the things that I was missing at home offered to me in a manner that I could not have of imagined, I had love, respect, caring contact, and I felt ALIVE again. I'll leave it at that, just to give you an example of how things can come about if you take responsibility for your own existence rather than continuing in ways that are more familiar but less productive. My physical condition did not improve, but I got my life back, I could then decide what I wanted from the prospective of a real person rather than a damaged body.

 

[baro-san]

Not everyone's problems are equal. A model with "money problems" but in all other aspects has a life full of wealth, love, and peer support and social belonging is no doubt far superior life than a minority kid who is discriminated against his entire life and cannot marry or find a decent job to support a most basic living. You are absolutely delusional if you think everyone's life is of equal difficulty or that "everyone just has problems." Sure, everyone has problems but why are some problems so big and some so insignificant? I'm sure Trump tripped over a banana peel could be considered a "problem" but that is by no means the same "problem" as the innocent boy born in Iraq who has his limbs bombed away despite him not having done a single bad thing in life.

Once again, all this just sounds like an effort for self-consolation.

All I want to know, is how is it decided, who will be born in a rich family, who will be born handsome, who will be born with high social status, in a new life? What can I do in this life to increase the chances that I can be born in good circumstances so I can achieve my dreams and live a fulfilling, meaningful, rich (both materially and emotionally) life next time around? I've been discriminated against my entire life through absolutely no fault of my own and I want to take a "life off" in my next incarnation and just live an easy, happy life.

The pain you feel, the bad emotions you experience, are messages from your higher self that your thoughts create a reality that diverges from the purpose you incarnated for. When you feel those negative emotions, instead of indulging in them, try to put them aside, and focus on something positive, uplifting. In time you should try to deliberately identify things you want, while observing what emotions they raise in you, as a gauge of how harmonious are they with your higher self's purpose. You can do it! Good luck!

 

[SeaAndSky]

Hi Justin,

I can't say anything that really adds to what Ken has told you, and do not have much time to post at the moment due to health issues of a loved one, but I can give you my own view on this, and can quote a lot of scripture in support if it interests you. However, since it relates to what I told you before, I'm not sure you really want to know. I.e., think on the following. Give and it shall be given to you. Forgive and you shall be forgiven. As you sow, so shall you reap. Etc. This is what you seem to be asking. What is the trick for getting good things? To the extent there is such a thing it is only this IMO: Sow as you would reap. So, as the golden rule says, do as you would be done by. And, it will come back to you . . . in this life or later.

Some see this type of thing as a blind force of the universe. "Karma" is often used in this sense. I see the hand of the almighty in everything--sometimes enforcing, sometimes allowing, always with ultimate loving intent. Likewise, as many will tell you, a lot of good pre-life explorations via regressions, etc. seem to indicate that we chose or at least consented to at least some of the basic parameters of parents and/or our lives. A kindly God apparently allows this type explorative opportunity to his children. Also, just because someone is (so to speak) "entitled" to things doesn't mean we necessarily draw on our "heavenly bank account" for the next life. We may have other aims, and things apparently look differently from a higher perspective. Likewise, the fact that Ken suffered a terrible injury does not necessarily mean that he was suffering for something he did wrong. As Jesus made clear in response to the question about the man born blind, not every ill we encounter is the result of some past wrongdoing.

So, to the extent you are looking for some "trick" or another to create conditions that will allow you to opt for the type of lifetime you seem to crave on the next round, that is the best I can do. Better start polishing your halo with good deeds (and good thoughts), and thereby building up "treasure in heaven". Whether you will choose to draw on this account for your next lifetime may, as far as I can tell, be up to you. You may find that, from a higher perspective, you can afford to let it remain on account and "build interest" for a while longer . . . or not.

Cordially,
S&S

PS--I am, as before, remonstrating with myself as well as you. I'd also like some things to be different in my next lifetime (if I return here), but they have more to do with making better choices. There are so many things I'd do differently as I look back . . . .

PPS--Baro-san's post just popped up. A different perspective, but he is also giving good advice.

 

[JustinTime]

Justin, would you really like it if everyone was absolutely equal in everything? Really think about it rather than simply responding as if you are suffering beyond other people's ability to understand. No bright ideas, no great experiences, no special loves, no feelings of special accomplishments, same ol' same ol' everyday existence everyday - or a step up from there that was practiced by a few leaders from the past like Lenin or Mao produced for their people. I would imagine that most of us have had feelings of "Why me?" in our lives (especially as children), with those feelings perhaps reappearing periodically.

There are only speculations, Either it is random, You decide, or Another force/group decides - what difference does it make, are you looking for someone to blame for your circumstances? Your statement that this is ALL you want want to know and then following it immediately with yet another question indicates a somewhat scattered thought process that oozes of self pity. No one here can give you the answer, all that we can offer is the personal answers we derived for ourselves which have been offered to you and have then been rejected as insufficient.
I doubt you have read this far, but if you have, I'd like to know if you think that everyone would end up the same if the all started out originally exactly the same in all respects? Perhaps reflect upon why you think that they would be either the same or different at the end of their lives and see if you can come up with an equally specific answer as the one you are now asking.

I don't know if it would help you, but what I did when I was in that situation as an adult was to volunteer. I volunteered at two County Agencies for several years while in college and later at a County Department where I furthered my knowledge in computer programming where I was hired and retired twenty-five years later. I found it interesting that it was so difficult to work as a volunteer, most places did not want me because they felt that they lacked control over me, I had not thought of that before that.

I hesitate to add my actions at the darkest part of my life (age 33), perhaps it will help. When I arrived home after six months hospitalization and rehabilitation, with no job, a wife that no longer wanted me, the inability to use three of my limbs, my parents and children feeling lost and helpless, not knowing how long I'd live, no future - total crap with no way out. About eight months later when I realized that my wife, who I was totally dependent upon, was planning to leave me, I hit bottom - well maybe you think your position was worse, I don't know. Anyway, my insides were in constant turmoil and I had to do something, anything to get beyond where I was at the time. I could not concentrate, my grades started falling because I could not concentrate and the course-work lost importance. I knew that it was my life, my challenge, my responsibility, but what could I do, and how could I do it with my limited abilities?

I could no longer function in that environment, I managed to get further rehabilitation in a hospital far away from my home, a place that offered a possible solution to some of my physical limitations, a last-ditch effort to see if there was indeed no regaining the use of my legs and arm or the spasticity that further complicated my life. I essentially ran away from home to find myself. A miracle happened there, a nurse, who had been raped twice in her life, who had never had a "safe" relationship, saw me as someone to have that experience with. Then a second miracle happened, a young girl, the age of my oldest daughter, needed someone to confide in - I had the things that I was missing at home offered to me in a manner that I could not have of imagined, I had love, respect, caring contact, and I felt ALIVE again. I'll leave it at that, just to give you an example of how things can come about if you take responsibility for your own existence rather than continuing in ways that are more familiar but less productive. My physical condition did not improve, but I got my life back, I could then decide what I wanted from the prospective of a real person rather than a damaged body.

Ken, I don't really understand your point? What's your point? You are saying that's it's actually good for everyone to start out differently and NOT be equal, sure that looks good... for the people who started out at advantageous spots. The view doesn't look so good for someone born in a DISADVANTAGEOUS position does it? Now imagine, what if you just happened to be in a disadvantageous position? What if we just asked you to "take a bullet for the team" in order to live a miserable life, just so the universe could advertise itself as one with "variety!, balance!, everyone is unique!" But is that fair for you? Is it fair for your, or anyone else, to be just so unluckily selected to be the bottom of the totem pole, although someone else is enjoying an undeserved benefit at the top of the totem pole and is probably goading over how his position came from his abilities than any type of good fortune. How would you feel?

Do you have any idea how it feels to be a discriminated racial minority in nearly everywhere you go? Your hard work doesn't translate into anything, no job opportunities, no promotion path, difficulty in getting true love, basically a life full of exasperation and crap. Would you volunteer for this type of life just to "take a bullet for the team" so other people can live wonderful lives and the universe can say, "look at me! I am diversified!". I bet you wouldn't. I bet nobody would. Yet the universe somehow still manages to force some souls to live terrible lives, just for the sake of diversity.

I'm not against diversity, but I am against forcing souls to live miserable lives just so that the universe can achieve diversity. I'm sure everyone is fine with diversity as long as they're not the ones to be at the bottom end of the totem pole. I'd rather have everyone born the same and start from the exact same conditions, there will be less diversity, but there will be more equality. Diversity doesn't mean much when you are at the bottom of the totem pole, trust me. It's not fair for the person at the bottom of the totem pole. Maybe you don't understand in this life, but it is true.

 

[Jim78]

Not everyone's problems are equal. A model with "money problems" but in all other aspects has a life full of wealth, love, and peer support and social belonging is no doubt far superior life than a minority kid who is discriminated against his entire life and cannot marry or find a decent job to support a most basic living. You are absolutely delusional if you think everyone's life is of equal difficulty or that "everyone just has problems." Sure, everyone has problems but why are some problems so big and some so insignificant? I'm sure Trump tripped over a banana peel could be considered a "problem" but that is by no means the same "problem" as the innocent boy born in Iraq who has his limbs bombed away despite him not having done a single bad thing in life.

Once again, all this just sounds like an effort for self-consolation.

All I want to know, is how is it decided, who will be born in a rich family, who will be born handsome, who will be born with high social status, in a new life? What can I do in this life to increase the chances that I can be born in good circumstances so I can achieve my dreams and live a fulfilling, meaningful, rich (both materially and emotionally) life next time around? I've been discriminated against my entire life through absolutely no fault of my own and I want to take a "life off" in my next incarnation and just live an easy, happy life.

I never said all problems are equal. Being born with good looks isn't a sign of a charmed life. I was considered good looking when I was younger but I still ended up an all singing all dancing hobo. I also know of successful women who have the illusion of having everything who have had more hellish lives than I ever had. All I'm saying really is that you can never judge a book by its cover.

 

[KenJ]

Justin, No one, I repeat, No one is forcing you to be miserable! I would suggest that you use your vivid imagination in a more productive way than you are. You are in a rut, just as I was, you don't see why you are in your current position, just as I was, you feel beaten down, just as I was, you are angry, disillusioned, and see no way out of your predicament, been there, done that.

Look at what you are doing, see where you are, imagine where you want to be (Irrespective of the position of others), and do something different. And, get that silly notion of fairness out of your head, the picture is much bigger than you think it is. To me, in terms of a painting like the Mona Lisa, you are complaining that there is too much dark colors, that you feel that the lighter colors are better and it is only fair that there should be more of them.

As for whether or not I know about racial discrimination, no, not in the worst possible way, only for being accused of being a slave owner because of the color of my skin (and therefore racist somehow) and unable to get into a doctoral program because I was a white male.

I recall,not long after being able to comprehend my disability, talking to a Social Worker who stated "The only thing that I would miss if I were in your condition would being unable to play the piano", I hope that I'm not that stupid sounding to you.

As Deborah says Energy follows attention, and you need to understand that for your own well-being.

Diversity doesn't mean much when you are at the bottom of the totem pole, trust me. It's not fair for the person at the bottom of the totem pole.

Without the people at the bottom, middle, and top of one another there would be no totem pole, just bland totems having lost their meaning.

 

[JustinTime]

Justin, No one, I repeat, No one is forcing you to be miserable! I would suggest that you use your vivid imagination in a more productive way than you are. You are in a rut, just as I was, you don't see why you are in your current position, just as I was, you feel beaten down, just as I was, you are angry, disillusioned, and see no way out of your predicament, been there, done that.

Look at what you are doing, see where you are, imagine where you want to be (Irrespective of the position of others), and do something different. And, get that silly notion of fairness out of your head, the picture is much bigger than you think it is. To me, in terms of a painting like the Mona Lisa, you are complaining that there is too much dark colors, that you feel that the lighter colors are better and it is only fair that there should be more of them.

As for whether or not I know about racial discrimination, no, not in the worst possible way, only for being accused of being a slave owner because of the color of my skin (and therefore racist somehow) and unable to get into a doctoral program because I was a white male.

I recall,not long after being able to comprehend my disability, talking to a Social Worker who stated "The only thing that I would miss if I were in your condition would being unable to play the piano", I hope that I'm not that stupid sounding to you.

As Deborah says Energy follows attention, and you need to understand that for your own well-being.


Without the people at the bottom, middle, and top of one another there would be no totem pole, just bland totems having lost their meaning.

If you don't want someone to be miserable, give them good and comfortable conditions to begin with! You can't go around fooling yourself that a bad life or bad circumstances are somehow a gift. Every time I interact with people, every conversation, I'm being judged negatively and discriminated against due to circumstances outside my control. How can I not feel bad or miserable even if I tried? How? You're speaking from a position of comfort - it's easy to say "just don't feel miserable", but if you were treated like this just because of racial discrimination and other reasons you, or anyone else in the world, would not feel happy at all. All this "you are in control of your own destiny" just sounds like a bunch of excuses. Try telling the innocent kid who lost his limbs to bombs and are bullied in school by kids to "just not feel miserable".

 

[Jim78]

Justin why are you so angry? People are just trying to help you see the positives. It seems to me your going to have to wallow in the negatives long enough to eventually search for hope. It's about changing your thinking, not trying to change everyone else. You won't find solace by seeking outside of yourself for validation. I should know, I've tried for years. Its like beating your head against a brick wall.

 

[JustinTime]

Justin why are you so angry? People are just trying to help you see the positives. It seems to me your going to have to wallow in the negatives long enough to eventually search for hope. It's about changing your thinking, not trying to change everyone else. You won't find solace by seeking outside of yourself for validation. I should know, I've tried for years. Its like beating your head against a brick wall.

I went to a top university, worked harder than 99% of the people in the world, am a generous person and have helped those who needed help my whole life, but I can't even get a job right now and everything in my life is going bad, I am the victim of racial discrimination wherever I go and nobody bats an eye or things about me. That's why I'm so angry. Do you know anything about my life? You don't know my life. Have you experienced all the pain I've experienced? Have you been me, for even one single day? I don't think so. I deserve better luck for everything I've put into life, and there are people all around who have not put in the hard work but are enjoying lives far better than me. Of course I'm angry. Put anyone in this situation and they would be angry. The people who aren't angry or those who are lazy and are easily complacent or those who have gotten more than they deserve in life for what they put in.

 

[KenJ]

Justin, I truly wish that you get what you think is so much better than you have right now, just to see if you handle that any better. I think it would be a good idea to save your posts for a review later in your life so that you can understand where you where at this time in your life. It is undoubtedly difficult for you to see any advantage for experiencing what you are going through at this time, and unfortunately, no one can give you answers that will relieve your pain.

If indeed you are in the top one-percent of the hardest working, freely giving, helpful person that you state that you are, there is something that you are obviously overlooking - I suspect it has something to do with attitude, but have no way of knowing for sure of course. What I do know, and seemingly not getting understood by you, is that your "life" will "be" the things that you focus upon - there is free-will - misery is a subjective experience, believe it or not. Energy does follow attention, when life gives you lemons, make lemonade, you seem unable or unwilling to move from where you see yourself, why is it so important to you to stay where you are with those feelings? What would you lose if you did not feel this way, what would you be giving up - think about it?

Just curious, I'm interested in your college degree, does your major fit your primary aptitude on an Aptitude test? Are you pursuing something you really want to do, something you love?

We can't fix your feelings about your life, but in terms of reincarnation and the forum guidelines, you have been given some valid suggestions and information - I don't know of much more that can be added. It seems that you might indeed be facing your life-lesson with your current issues.

I wish you well in your journey.

 

[SeaAndSky]

Hi Justin,

First it was your parents, who didn't deserve to be rich, but kept getting richer, and had what you didn't have but wanted and deserved. Then it was all people who had things you didn't have but wanted and deserved. Then, excuse me if I'm having trouble keeping up or getting mixed up at this point, it was mean/undeserving people everywhere who had things you didn't have but wanted and deserved. All of the foregoing was mixed in with complaints about karma or God or fate or something not being fair. More recently you have started to cite some racial or ethnic basis for your failure to obtain what you want and believe you deserve. Excuse me if I haven't completely kept up, but I've had a lot of other things on my plate recently. Anyhow, maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't recall this ethnic/racial complaint coming up until recently. If this was the issue, why not put it in up front? Likewise, why has it not prevented your parents from enjoying their "undeserved" success? Are you adopted? I'm actually wondering about these things. It just seems strange to me that if this was prominent in your experience and the cause of your troubles you would not have said something about it before now.

Cordially,
S&S

 

[JustinTime]

Justin, I truly wish that you get what you think is so much better than you have right now, just to see if you handle that any better. I think it would be a good idea to save your posts for a review later in your life so that you can understand where you where at this time in your life. It is undoubtedly difficult for you to see any advantage for experiencing what you are going through at this time, and unfortunately, no one can give you answers that will relieve your pain.

If indeed you are in the top one-percent of the hardest working, freely giving, helpful person that you state that you are, there is something that you are obviously overlooking - I suspect it has something to do with attitude, but have no way of knowing for sure of course. What I do know, and seemingly not getting understood by you, is that your "life" will "be" the things that you focus upon - there is free-will - misery is a subjective experience, believe it or not. Energy does follow attention, when life gives you lemons, make lemonade, you seem unable or unwilling to move from where you see yourself, why is it so important to you to stay where you are with those feelings? What would you lose if you did not feel this way, what would you be giving up - think about it?

Just curious, I'm interested in your college degree, does your major fit your primary aptitude on an Aptitude test? Are you pursuing something you really want to do, something you love?

We can't fix your feelings about your life, but in terms of reincarnation and the forum guidelines, you have been given some valid suggestions and information - I don't know of much more that can be added. It seems that you might indeed be facing your life-lesson with your current issues.

I wish you well in your journey.

KenJ, I know for a FACT that if I am lucky enough to become financially independent it would be the greatest life ever. I have an extremely strong work ethic and strong passion for my industry (that most others in this industry don't). I will be able to handle it so well, and would be a great compensation for the unlucky circumstances I've been given in life (I'm not going to explain this any more, because it's hard for others who aren't in the same context to understand). I could easily surpass the so-called "successes" of my parents. It would also make me more benevolent, to have experienced both failure and massive disappointment at the beginning of my life, but to culminate that with speculator success and achievement, which I undoubtedly worked for, and deserve. Wish me luck!

 

[KenJ]

Good Luck

 

[Tinkerman]

Bravo, Justin... and good luck!