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Imagination vs Fantasy

deborah

deborah

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I came across an interesting concept in Woolger's new book Healing your past Lives. What are your thoughts on his following statement?

I believe that in its higher form (as opposed to fanasy, its lower or ego related form), imagination is the bridge to the transpersonal realities of the soul, that transcendent part of the personality we have called the self. This level of reality is also called the subtle world or the spirit world.

Platonism, Hinduism, and Buddhism, all of which subscribe to the idea of transmigration of the soul, call it the intermediary world, a reality between this world and the world of pure light. (In Tibetan Buddhism, this in-between place is called a bardo.)

This measureless, infinite world beyond the material world is the source not only of all the memories and experiences of humanity, but also of all the dreams and visions.
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I found it interesting that he seperates imagination from fantasy. That they are two different kinds of experience. I am reading this to also say that the imaginative state of consciousness (as he continues the conversation) is the state of consciousness that opens the doors for PL experiences.

He also seperates the ways in which people experience images. Some people see images, some hear them and some feel or sense them. How do you imagine (not fantasize) things when in an altered state? Your eyes, ears, or feeling sensations?
 
Whoah... I've never thought to separate the two! I always thought imagination and fantasy were pretty much the same thing. So... I'm not quite sure how to answer your question.

Where would he put dreams on the spectrum? Closer to imagination? Because when I dream, I'm probably closer to what he calls "imagination"... there are more sensations, sights, and sounds than what I can call up in an ordinary "fantasy".

Lib
 
For me, fantasy is when you try to visualise something that is not likely to happen/have happened, and you know it. E.g. making up a story about how it would be to be married to your favorite actor or so.

Imagination I call something different. It starts with a more possible visualisation. Like when a friend tells you something that happened to him/her and you say : I can imagine that ! It has more to do with feelings I guess. You can imagine how your friend felt, or you can imagine how cold it is in Siberia etc...

I read or heard it before (don't know where anymore) that some regressionists even use that technique...ask their clients to imagine a beautiful scene or so, and from there continue to explore past lives.

About your other question, in an altered state, I often have a visualisation of a scene, accompanied with feelings. The feelings are the most important 'guide' to continue the visualisation for me, to extend the view of the scene I am 'watching' or 'reliving'.
But I need to point out here that I talk about inner feelings, not sensations of the skin or so. Feelings of happiness, sadness, loneliness, anger etc, and often feelings of curiosity (what is going to happen next?).


Eevee
 
I ran across

A thread in the children's section. Something I posted a while back about how children experience time. I posted about the book Children of the New Millennium - by P.M.H. Atwater. Her father was a policeman in Idaho and taught her the techniques of investigative fieldwork which later evolved into the research protocol she used.
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......The Temporal Lobes are those sections of the brain located at or near the temples. Traditionally, the temporal lobes are referred to as the "patterning center,' that place where original blueprints of shape and form are stored. For this reason they are thought to be the seat of imagination.
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I thought this was interesting. I have come across the premise of the "Seat of The Soul." But never the "seat of imagination." Now I am thinking about left hemisphere and right hemispheres of the brain, and how important it is to bring the two together when entering altered states. Children it seems - come by this naturally.

Perhaps Eevee, Woolger is suggesting in another way - where the gateway to past lives is? I am still thinking on this. It's an interesting premise, one that needs to be taken into consideration, at least for me.

Lib - he does address the dreaming state but I will have to look back in the book and get back to you. :)
 
I only agree with half of what they say. I agree that imagination is connected with spirituality and with collective memory, but I don't agree that it's separate from fantasy, not in the way you mentioned. I think fantasy is the product of imagination, but it's quite hard to distinguish in which way. It might be the product of lesser imagination, based on ivention, or of an upper kind of imagination, based on altered memories. But the borderline between the two is very thin and almost unpercievable, that's my opinion.
 
...fantasy is when you try to visualise something that is not likely to happen/have happened, and you know it...Imagination I call something different. It starts with a more possible visualisation. Like when a friend tells you something that happened to him/her and you say : I can imagine that ! It has more to do with feelings I guess. You can imagine how your friend felt, or you can imagine how cold it is in Siberia etc...
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I really like Eevee's definition of fantasy and imagination -- it pretty much explains how I see the two of them.


How do you imagine (not fantasize) things when in an altered state? Your eyes, ears, or feeling sensations?
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Can I check off all of the above? :D

Now I am thinking about left hemisphere and right hemispheres of the brain, and how important it is to bring the two together when entering altered states.
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I agree. I also think that children do this so easily -- and that is why they are able to move so quickly back and forth between an altered state and reality.

Very interesting thread -- I'd love to read new member's thoughts.

Aili
 
I've also been pondering about this the last couple of weeks. And I finally got it :)

Fantasizing is making things up, it's creating a story with your mind, and you use the igredients you like. Like dreaming about how it would be to be on a tropical island with the one you love.

Imagination is an experience, the images come from within, they accompany an emotion or a memory you're not totally aware of yet. You don't need to make anything up, you don't need to dig any deeper, you just go with the flow of the imagery.

Curious Girl.
 
Both Jack and curious_girl come very close to my own experience and understanding of imagination versus fantasy. Woolger's clinical explanation is pretty much the way I see things. Maybe I can make it easier to understand by relating it to my writing. Most of what I wrote was non-fiction, but as I wrote, I'd Imagine how I wanted to present the story. In other words, with practice, I could create my story as I typed, and usually my words flowed smoothly.

When I did write fiction, which is another word for fantasy, I'd have to think of a plot and story line before I could begin using my Imagination to create the story. While I'd still Imagine how the story should be written, I already had decided on the plot, all I had left to do was to transfer the plot onto paper, choosing the words I needed to tell the story. Hope that makes it a bit easier to understand.

John
 
I see it very much as CuriousGirl describes:

Well, perhaps some meditation or relaxation to open up the inner source.
But as soon as it's open, the movie can start, you only have to watch what happens.
So perhaps we could call it our inner story teller, our private archive of memories and emotions.
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I think sometimes people worry that they are 'just making it all up' and so shut down their "inner movie show" before it can really get started.

I will often begin a meditation/exploration with a certain image - like a 'still' - that may have come to me spontaneously during the day. For instance, I might meet someone in real life that I get 'that funny feeling' about and wonder where I might have known them before. I may have an impression of them in a certain outfit, like a uniform or other historical dress, so I will deliberately imagine their face + my 'funny feeling' about them in that outfit and then see what might unfold.

One time I had only one image, blood splatters on rice paper with the accompanying spattering sound and a feeling of horror. Things of this nature will be a spring board. Other people may have fleeting images of this nature but dismiss them as 'just imagination' or 'pure fantasy' or whatever, or simply not notice them or otherwise ignore them. However, I believe this is the way that the 'soul' communicates with the conscious mind - in a combination of visual images, emotions and intuitions. Those little fluttery feelings in the gut, tinglings in the spine and such are indications to me that something is afoot. They can be subtle and easy to miss in the hurly burly of life.

I will 'imagine' my starting point image quite deliberately, look at it from a few different angles and think about it quite consciously while I go into a state of relaxation. Then I ask myself how do I feel about it, what might it all be about and similar. Sometimes I will temporarily draw a blank, but before long the movie will usually just start rolling all by itself. I am no longer directing it, causing it to happen, it just unfolds. From that point it feels just like a memory. It might not be a very sequential narrative. I might remember some high point/dramatic moment, then remember other bits that came before or after and so forth, just like a normal, present life memory. I will just know what is going on and who all the people are even if I am just 'seeing' one scene.
 
I thought perhaps new members may wish to comment on this thread. What are your thoughts?


The word image - comes to mind when I think of Woolger's premise. An inner image - that opens a door to the action we call imagination. It is a step into the spiritual realms or into the past.


I do not think consciousness is bound by time or space, and I think the next evolution is exploring with consciousness. I think that past life memories are attainable by everyone - once the door is open and you allow yourself experience the greater aspect of who you are. Just my two cents.
 
Ah, Deb, you must have read my mind, LOL!


I have been pondering on the difference between the two lately - and on the connection between imagination and memories.


I believe everyone who is not an experienced meditator knows what I'm talking about when I tell that I often find myself dismissing *images* that come to my mind with a "What?? where did that come from?? It's got to be my brain rambling!".


It's not always very easy to just let things flow without questioning them. Recently I had a peculiar and funny experience (I know someone will have a good laugh about this ;) ). I was focusing on a specific person during meditation, trying to find more about who this person was. All of a sudden an image of a baby sheep popped up in my mind. I was startled and dismissed it altogether - it made no sense at all! Later, I came to find that my baby sheep did make a lot of sense after all.. :rolleyes:


And I think the big difference between imagination and fantasy lies exactly in the pattern of your mind at the moment things come to you - in fantasy, EVERYTHING is possible. You don't stop to question anything, because it would make no sense to. Fantasy is a wonderful thing, I would say - a powerful force! But imagination is multilayered, so to speak - it's a work of creation in which you put your whole self into. Even your sceptic and questioning self, if you have one. ;) I know I do!
 
To me, the word "fantasy" has a connotation of "desire" about it. Like fantasizing about sex, winning a million dollars, etc.


That's what ties it to the ego.


I doubt these things make any sense in higher dimensions, where I believe the real home of our souls to be. To me, Earth is a testing ground where we rarely have what we want and we live in constant fear of losing what we do have. I don't know much about Fraud (er..., I mean Freud ... how's that for a Freudian slip? :tongue:), but I've heard that the ego is really just a mechanism (like the survival instinct) to keep us well-fed, well-mated, and thriving in a material world.


But I've also heard that if you're going to do any psychic work (or anything in the realm of the paranormal) the ego just gets in the way. For example, if a person has a "premonition" colored by their personal desires or fears, it's not nearly as reliable as one free of these distractions.
 
For me, imagination and fantasy are the same thing. Some people can distinguish between the two, but as far as I'm concerned, they're just playing word games. I like what Wooger thinks on the subject, I just don't agree with him.
 
The way in which Woolger describes imagination is almost poetic, but a little over my head; and I can't agree with his opinion that it has a great deal to do with the "Bardo", which I perceive as a sort of conditioning environment that is similar to what we are used to experiencing -- a sort of halfway house where we are not overwhelmed by the huge difference between the spirit world and earth. It may well be that such a place could be formed by our memories of what we "think" are real. Imagination could be part of the process, but I don't feel that it is consciously imagined as such.


I agree that imagination and fantasy differ, but only in their primary intent and purpose. Imagination can be devoid of ego and unlikely circumstances, and its intent would be to create what could be, rather than what may be vain and self-centered. If I were to envision a new package design with an interesting label, I would be applying my faculties of imagination. But, if I visualized myself as the product's owner, without having any purpose other than ego, then I would be entertaining a fantasy that is born of ego. If I believe in my fantasy, I would be delusional. Whereas, if I believe in my creation of a new and useful product, I would be applying imagination.


In defense of fantasy, I believe that it has its place as a form of entertainment or even instructional allegory. Whereas, imagination can be used to design draconian weapons of destruction. So, therefore, the worthiness of one's purpose is not what differentiates the two. And, there is no clear reference in which to judge between these two qualities. What is fantasy to one, may be a realistic imagination to another.


-Nightrain
 
I don't think imagination is free of ego, I think ego figures very prominently in using imagination. You can dream of a fantasy land, or a new and useful product, but in both cases, you're using the same process to envision these things, and ego figures just as prominently in both. A person can't divest themself of ego. Our personal biases color everything we envision in our mind, whether we're imagining a useful product or a dream land where anything is possible.
 
sellingmysoul said:
I don't think imagination is free of ego, I think ego figures very prominently in using imagination. You can dream of a fantasy land, or a new and useful product, but in both cases, you're using the same process to envision these things, and ego figures just as prominently in both. A person can't divest themself of ego. Our personal biases color everything we envision in our mind, whether we're imagining a useful product or a dream land where anything is possible.
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Of course, you're quite correct; because there is a certain amount of overlapping where fantasy and imagination are concerned. Imagination is certainly employed with fantasy. But, imagination is not always considered fantasy.


I should also add, however, that much imagination can be quite free of ego in widespread cases of creativity as it is applied to practical purposes, such as advertising, product design, story writing, music and many other endeavors.


-Nightrain
 
An interesting thread!


I've had occasional thoughts as to imagination v fantasy, but never actually fully seperated them out before. It is also interesting to consider imagination as a gateway towards seeing past memories, since that is how I ended up stumbling on this site.


I think there is something in the notion of fantasy being deliberately constructed and therefore a little more hesitant and faltering, like the member who said he has to first think out the plot and course run before he can start typing it. Whereas imagination comes freer and easier, so that words flow. A little, I guess, like a wakeful dream.


I always thought I had way too much imagination when I would start dreaming/seeing things in the back of my mind. Sometimes I would try to manipulate them, but it was hard work, and eventually they would run straight back to the course they were originally taking. (Trying to 'fantasize' 'imagination' maybe?)


Sometimes I would see repeats of the same story on different days - maybe always the same scenario, occasionally moving on in time. But it wasn't until after one particularly vivid dream/imagining that curiosity overtook, obliging me to look up the people involved, that I found it was actually true! and through looking for the people in that vision, I stumbled upon two other imaginings too!


So perhaps imagination and fantasy are seperate, and (although I have found three things to be true now, my academic/scientific mind still stumbles to say it...) imagination really is a gateway to a level of the unconscious soul...?
 
What a great thread...


It may come as no surprise that I love to ponder life in many ways. The answer to the difference between imagination and fantasy seemed almost obvious to me when the question was posed here -- and it would be essentially everything Curious Girl said in her first post. I could not have said it any better. But although I could have made the distinction at any time, I heretofore hadn't. Thus the mental exercise presented is a most useful one!


For me, most ponderings in the waking or semi-waking state are internally verbal. Only dreaming adds the vivid visual and sometimes tactile pieces.


I would also agree that both fantasy and imagination have their places and that there is at least one more variation which is less directed than imagination. Perhaps that could be thought of as daydreaming or meditation. To me the utility of fantasy, beyond entertainment, is that it creates goals (often which need to be tempered by reality as well). Imagination is more likely to provide solutions, since it draws from information you may have but puts it together in new ways. Meditation is the most fertile ground for creation, since it is the most likely to draw information from the soul that would have almost entirely hidden to the consciousness (as happens in a properly-done past-life regression).


That is my take on it...


Rod
 
Deborah said:
How do you imagine (not fantasize) things when in an altered state? Your eyes, ears, or feeling sensations?
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When in a meditative state it is always the same for me - so far anyway. I find myself next to another person, watching them and then I quickly move into their physical form and I am then that individual, hearing, speaking, seeing, feeling the emotions and experiencing the physical surroundings. It is not an unnerving experience but is totally a surprise to me as I do not know where my quiet mind is taking me as I have no preformed ideas about the experience.


I have thought that the experience may be as you have quoted Woolger,

This measureless, infinite world beyond the material world is the source not only of all the memories and experiences of humanity, but also of all the dreams and visions.
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and that I am fortunate to be able to tap into the "stream of consciousness" (I like to call it that, but you know what I mean) and experience "a" life that for some reason is available for me to enter into. I do not have the strict feeling that our lives belong to us alone, but rather are the communal property of anyone who is wanting to play those same roles. Nothing is lost and all experience is preserved and available if we want it. I have thought that ego, in this current lifetime, is the stumbling block to understanding that we are all the same thing and that the reality in which we exist is far richer than most people can comprehend.


That kind of meditative experience has made me start to believe that all lifetimes are happening concurrently from the viewpoint of the "self". I find myself becoming more and more convinced that we are experiencing all lifetimes - ours and others - in the same "timeless now". I find that idea to be quite satisfying but if you can't put aside your ego, you will never accept it (at least, in this ego-centric lifetime).


These are just my own thoughts (for good or ill, I know not :laugh:).
 
Awesome reflections Stardis. I have some thoughts to add later - after grading papers today from a book I just started reading. Quite interesting. In the meantime, I hope others enjoy this thread and have things to add.
 
Deborah said:
I came across an interesting concept in Woolger's new book Healing your past Lives. What are your thoughts on his following statement?



I found it interesting that he seperates imagination from fantasy. That they are two different kinds of experience. I am reading this to also say that the imaginative state of consciousness (as he continues the conversation) is the state of consciousness that opens the doors for PL experiences.

He also seperates the ways in which people experience images. Some people see images, some hear them and some feel or sense them. How do you imagine (not fantasize) things when in an altered state? Your eyes, ears, or feeling sensations?
Click to expand...

Beta, alpha, theta, delta are brainwave frequency ranges, but the domain is continuous. You get from one state to another.

I remember reading in Jane Roberts' "Seth Speaks - The Eternal Validity of the Soul by Jane Roberts" (Chapter 19 - "Alternate presents and multiple focus") that there are various states we get through in the alpha range A1 to A4, and in A1 thre are parallel states A1a, A1b, A1c. In each one of those states different specific things can be experienced. Pretty interesting ...

Chapter 19's first paragraph:
Let us begin with the normal waking consciousness that you know. But one step away from this is another level of consciousness into which you all slip without knowing. We will call it "A-1." It is adjacent to your normal consciousness, separated from it very slightly; and yet in it very definite effects can appear that are not present in your usual state.​

As far as I believe, there is an imagination plane that includes every human's individual slice, side-by-side, not overlapping, and also our higher level essences' (those that incarnate in us) imagination domains, also not overlapping, each one including their incarnations' slices.

On this plane we focus / project while in various states like when we fantasize, when we daydream, when we create, when we dream, when we lucid dream / astral project, when we regress.

We can't project into another's slice of imagination, but we can peek into that. This is actually the process through which we experience our past lives: peeking into the imagination slices of our past incarnations.

On the imagination plane we immediately materialize our thoughts, and any stimuli we might receive from other planes are materialized in thought-forms that are compatible with our own beliefs. For example, in a dream we might get in contact with a higher guide, or somebody who passed away, or the intense thoughts of another living human (or pet :)). Some may be in essence form on one of the non-physical planes (the afterlife plane is a different plane than the imagination plane). For our benefit those entities and stimuli materialize in forms known to us.

When our essence incarnates, it focuses / projects onto its imagination plane slice, where from it experiences us, through our individual slice of the same imagination plane.

Anyway, that's how I see these things. I understand why that author felt the need to segregate imagination from fantasy.
 
This is a 2008 thread. BUT I thought perhaps new members would like to jump in. Just remember - some of the posters in this thread have long past through/moved on and may no longer be participating. So I hope since 11 years, others can bring their insight to the topic.

I believe that in its higher form (as opposed to fantasy, its lower or ego related form), imagination is the bridge to the transpersonal realities of the soul, that transcendent part of the personality we have called the self. This level of reality is also called the subtle world or the spirit world.

Platonism, Hinduism, and Buddhism, all of which subscribe to the idea of transmigration of the soul, call it the intermediary world, a reality between this world and the world of pure light. (In Tibetan Buddhism, this in-between place is called a bardo.)

This measureless, infinite world beyond the material world is the source not only of all the memories and experiences of humanity, but also of all the dreams and visions.
Click to expand...
 
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