Is Reincarnation Real?

[Tinkerman]

Truthseeker...I love the analogy to college!! We could really expand on that couldn't we.


Tman

 

[dking777]

We are perfect beings and we already know everything it is possible to know. The problem is, that perfect existence is boring beyond belief, so we created a huge game called "physical reality" were we enter into this make-believe reality just to have fun. Not every soul chooses to play this particular game, but we did, because here we are.
We do not need to advance, we are already perfect. We do not need to learn anything. We already know it all. We just voluntarily mask that knowledge while we are here playing the game. The only purpose in life is to enjoy the game.


And, there are many sub-games within the game. You might choose to pay the power game, or the wealth game, or like many of us on this forum, the spiritual development game. But it's all just a game. We do it for the shear enjoyment of it, and nothing more.

I had 'near death experience' when I was 18. I had amnesia afterward so my mind was busy trying to unravel the mystery of my own physical life prior to the accident, yet I could remember some vivid details about what 'spirit knowledge' I had accessed on the other side. I told people I thought they had it backwards. The soul is perfect and knows everything. The spirit was immersed in 'physical reality' and going to through a process of helping 'humanity' evolve into a higher state of mind. Human experiences were not designed to evolve the soul to any higher dimension. It was impossible to be any more or less than what it was in a perfect state outside the physical body.


I told people over and over again - (from my perspective after my glimpse into the other side) this world was a masquerade ball. Our 'spirits' donned a 'fake persona' and carried it for a temporary time - and when the time came to take off the 'mask' - it was right back to our original and true personality as a soul. It was for the experience of it.


The 'lesson's' only applied to the 'state of mind' in human existence - and a 'spirit' would run the gamut of all experiences to gain valuable lessons on the worldly plane for the 'next go-around.' To me, when I studied it - it was like a video game. You advanced to new levels - and once you achieved a higher state of consciousness in one life time - it would carry over to the next. The lessons were not for the sake of 'soul advancement' as much as for the sake of 'human conscious advancement' in the next phase or incarnation.


A role playing 'game' or 'amusement theme park' in the universal scheme of eternity.


So - I for one - completely and whole heartily agree with your own assessment.


Life is just a game.


DK

 

[Majic]

I can't perceive it as a game either, because IMO reincarnation is designed for learning experiences for individuals as well as the human race in general. We come back to learn different qualities, to work out problems we had with people in a past existence, and to learn with the balance of karma. Calling it a game trivializes life. Our life experiences brings us closer to a peaceful world.

 

[dking777]

Hi dking,
As I said, I much rather favor a good debate... And how does karma come into this process under your assesment? I agree that one of the purposes of reincarnation is the progressive improvement of humankind, and, although I've never had the experience of an NDE myself, I am quite certain that indeed one must perceive what we view as our "physical experience" from an entirely different perspective, and under far fewer limitations in the state of awareness of our consciousness than while we are withheld within the physical body, so much so that one might even perceive it as "perfection". But I cannot see it as a "game", and quite certainly the experience acquired while in each incarnation must also contribute to the advancement of the Soul, or what would be its purpose?

I died in a car crash and came back with a partial glimpse of the other side - which - I will be the first to admit - was very hard to make sense of. During this time - I had five friends who did pass on and didn't come back to their physical bodies in a 'near death experience.' They went on to be in the 'limbo'' stage prior to incarnating back. So from the age of 17 to the age of 21 - I spent time conversing with the spirits of five friends in 'after death communiques.' I kept trying to bury the memories of my own 'afterlife' experience. The spirit of my five friends worked overtime to make sure my mind was focused on the 'truth of the matter.' With that in mind - they are the ones who were "standing" with both feet firmly planted in the spiritual realm. I was the guy with one foot on the physical side and one 'ear' to the spiritual side. They are the ones who gave me insight to the parable of it being like a 'game.'

O.E. gamen "joy, fun, amusement," common Gmc. (cf. O.Fris. game, O.N. gaman, O.H.G. gaman "joy, glee"), regarded as identical with Goth. gaman "participation, communion," from P.Gmc. *ga- collective prefix + *mann "person," giving a sense of "people together." Meaning "contest played according to rules" is first attested c.1300.

Contest is defined as a conflict for the sake of a victory. What I was told by my five 'spiritual friends' standing on the other side looking back on life - reflects what fiziwig stated in his post. Not all 'souls' choose to come here. Those of us who do - the victory is in the challenge of it. There are no winners or losers ..... just the thrill of the challenge.


There is more I can write on this - but haven't the time. As I state - it was through their 'perception' of it that I came to see it the way I did. Otherwise - like you - I wouldn't be able to see the sense in it myself. So - my experience sort of dictates my own opinion and belief on the matter.


Which came first - the chicken or the egg? Which comes first, the life of the soul or the life of the human body. I have found that many people in this world look at it backwards because they don't feel life has a beginning until the ink is dry on a birth certificate. So (in my opinion) people adapt a backwards look at the reality of 'consciousness' because the 'true life' is hidden away in the 'unconscious' arena of the mind. If you can't see it - then it doesn't exist type of thing.


How many times have I heard the 'religious fundamental' mindset dictate that the purpose of life in this world is to create a 'perfect body, mind and soul' - so you can retire in heaven?


My first NDE was in 1966 at the age of six. Since that age, I have been talking about the 'transmigration of the soul' with people from all walks of life. Forty four years of conversations are hidden away inside me somewhere. I have never really discussed it with anyone who had a clear handle on the matter. I finally got around to reading the research of of Dr. Ian Stevenson in 1988. (I got to exchange emails with Dr. Stevenson before he passed away.) As a researcher - I respected his approach of collecting data - but as far as shedding light on the subject - I felt it was lacking. I feel that every thing I have read on the subject is lacking because it is individualized to the point it takes away from the whole. It is not a 'me' game. It is not a 'you' game. Even by the definition of 'game' - it is a people experience. It is a 'we' game. It is not a game where we line up the winners on one side of the room and the losers on the other side of the room. It is a game where (in the end) all come out of the experience claiming victory. We don't do this alone. We do this by acting as a 'team' and working together. It is not about perfecting the 'individual soul' as much as it is perfecting the 'group consciousness' of humanity.

No man is an island entire of itself; every man


is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;


if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe


is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as


well as any manner of thy friends or of thine


own were; any man's death diminishes me,


because I am involved in mankind.


And therefore never send to know for whom


the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

​

I don't feel the prize is in the 'hereafter' as much as it is in the here and now. The 'hereafter' takes care of itself. It is the here and now that we (as spirits) have come to focus our attention on.


Define 'ego' and the ego is only centered on the 'I' aspect and misses on out on the bigger picture involved in the reincarnation process of the 'we' that is involved. I feel that before an inquiring mind can explore the depths of the mysteries involved in the 'transmigration' process - it has to shift the focus from 'my soul' to our souls. If you feel your in the game only for 'self' then is that the 'soul' talking or the 'ego' talking?


Trust me - I know where you coming from. If it wasn't for my own direct experiences in the past - it wouldn't make sense to my mind either.


DK

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi Majic,


It's great to be having the priviledge of debating these issues with you and everyone else here again... :thumbsup: What is absolutely wonderful about this forum is that we can do so. What a rare priviledge if compared to our daily encounters.


Hi dking,

It is not a game where we line up the winners on one side of the room and the losers on the other side of the room. It is a game where (in the end) all come out of the experience claiming victory. We don't do this alone. We do this by acting as a 'team' and working together. It is not about perfecting the 'individual soul' as much as it is perfecting the 'group consciousness' of humanity.

I couldn' agree with you more... :thumbsup:


My main questioning, and I'm going to use a radical example here, is this: Can a serial killer rapist find himself on the other side in a state of "perfection"? From all I have also encountered spiritually, in my case mostly by mediumnic means, this is not so. I have encountered various cases of Spirits "trapped between realms", others literally in what could be defined as "in hell". There have been countless evidences from phenomenae such as hauntings, ghost encounters and poltergeists in which it is clearly observable that some Souls do NOT find themselves in a condition anywhere near "perfection".


From what little I have managed to conclude, based on my own experience, there is no such thing as the "devil", but Soul/Spirits who find themselves in a sad stage of "consciousness". The term we use for them is "our less enlightened brothers and sisters".


The good news is that no condition is eternal. We ALL evolve collectively, without exceptions, and there is no such thing as an "eternal hell". My own belief is that a large portion of our evolutionary process is in the need to assist others in their own development as well. As I said before, this is, to a large extent, the intention of the more enlightened Souls who find themselves "on the other side" - to assist others in their development. At some profound level, we are ALL interconnected. We are ALL brothers and sisters because we derive from the same "Greater Consciousness", hence our responsibility towards others.


But to state that we are already "perfect beings" who are incarnating "just to have fun" because "life is just a game" is a concept I cannot agree with, for it would mean that we can do what we feel like without having to face the consequences of our actions. Again according to my own experience, this is not so, and the "Divine Justice" is manifested via the perfection of the Karmic process...

 

[dking777]

And how does karma come into this process under your assesment?

I spent a great deal of time with a group of three 18 year old minds and spoke freely about my own understanding from my NDE as well as the 'five' spirits where roaming around - in and out of my apartment at the time. I passed on information to their young minds to see how they reacted to the 'truth' that was being passed on to me from the 'spirits' dwelling on a higher plane.


I told them, "The past, present and future is all one thing - from the perspective of the spirits on the other side."


They didn't see it as we saw it. Destiny was established long before our spirits incarnated into the physical form. So - it wasn't the 'karma' of a past life that was producing the current life - as much as it was the 'karma' of a future life that was producing the current life.


To illustrate this - I took a spool of thread and ran it across the length of a room. I slanted the thread from left to right. The left was defined as the starting point. (Past) The right was the final point. (Future) Then I fashioned a hook and placed a weight on it. I took it to the left and let it go. The weight on the hook pulled it to the right and the final point. I asked my friends, "What was the momentum that propelled the object forward?" I told my friends this was how it was being explained to me from the spirits who were on the spiritual plane.


The life of the 'individual' was not the weight on the hook. The life was the 'thread of consciousness' that connected the past with the future. According to them, it was all one continuous flow. According to them - we were viewing life backwards because our final destination had already been established and achieved by the soul itself because of the 'thread' it had woven from the past to the future. Our future karma was pulling us toward our destination more so than our past pushing us to our destination. I told my friends,


"You have as much chance going into the past and changing the past - as you do going into the future and changing the destiny that is already in store for you."


This concept does NOT set well within the 'egoic' mind that fells it is the master of it's own destiny. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg. The brain (ego) or the soul?


I don't feel 'mistakes' are stumbling blocks that prevent us from our destiny - as much as they are lessons guiding us to our destiny.


So - I don't get caught up in the idea that "karma" is punishment for bad deeds in a past life.


DK

 

[stardis]

In the April 2010 issue of Discover magazine, there is an interesting article titled "Back From the Future" that goes along with what dking is saying (at least I think it does).The article discusses the direction of time flow.

By extension, the universe might have a destiny that reaches back and conspires with the past to bring the present into view... On a personal scale, it may make us question whether fate is pulling us forward and whether we have free will.

 

[Charles Stuart]

Well, in my view the notion of a "set destination/future" would necessarily indeed imply in the non-existence of "free-will", and again I cannot envisage this concept as correct. Dr Brian Weiss experimented with hypnosis into "future lives" but, if I am not mistaken, came to the realization that what his patients were "seeing" were "possible" future lives, which could be modified once different decisions were taken in the present. IMO, the future is a "soup of possibilities", still subject to change, whereas the past has already been established. Just as an example, as much as I would like to, it would be impossible for me to reincarnate into my past lifetime as Bonnie Prince Charlie and change the dramatic consequences of the decisions and actions that were taken back then.


To believe that our destinies have already been established and "set in stone" would be to believe that it is not possible for us to change our "fates", and in this case indeed there would be no room for free-will, nor the implications of karma based on the choices we have taken. Personally I cannot envisage this as being so...


As for there being "no time" in the spiritual realms, again I believe this to be a misconception. "Time", as I understand it, is our interpretation of "sequences of events". Indeed what seems to happen is that, due to the far lesser density of the "spiritual realms", these "sequences of events" take place at a far more rapid rate. I know of one story of a Soul/Spirit who, believing that not more than a month had gone by since his passing over, upon visiting the physical realm was most surprised to find that the equivalent of five years in "physical time" had gone by. Were there "no time" and most probably the spiritual realms would be at a standstill, and, if as according to Einstein: time = space (although quite certainly the "laws of physics" in the spiritual realm are most probably not the same as those in the physical), "no time" or "simultaneous time" would mean "no sequences of events" and, most probably, "no space"...

 

[dking777]

In the April 2010 issue of Discover magazine, there is an interesting article titled "Back From the Future" that goes along with what dking is saying (at least I think it does).The article discusses the direction of time flow.

One of the things I did after my NDE was visit the University and discussed my experience with college professors. They told me there was a theory in the quantum mechanics model that ran along the same line.


The parable I used with my friends was a 'station wagon.' The old fashioned type that had a seat turned backwards.

When the family went on trips - the parents sat in the front. The older sibliings sat in the center - and the youngest siblings always sat in the back. I told my friends the 'soul' was the parent in the front seat. The middle sibling was the 'spirit' sitting in the center. The youngest was the 'human' frame of mind who design had his 'ego' sense perception facing the opposite view. View the motion of the vehicle only as it passed through it peripheral vision backwards from the actual forward motion. If you used the analogy that applies to Plato's allegory of the cave and say - what if the youngster in the back could only see through the tailgate and not have access to the front view. If all the child ever saw during a long trip was the scene passing around him as the moment passed - then he would only have a view as things 'appeared' in an illusionary manner - after it had come into focus. So - the mind might develop a theory that because he can't see the road that is appearing underneath until the moment passes - he might start to think it doesn't exist until the moment it comes into view.


This is what I also told my friends. The soul is the parent and we are it's child. Our past lives don't belong to the human 'ego' mind as much as it belongs to the 'soul.' The 'past life' is the 'sibling that has graduated to the 'center row' of seats.


Our perception that we have of the 'past' without the future - is an illusionary. The 'road' and the 'scene' is already there and when the moment comes - it passes from the front view to the back view. (As in Plato's allegory.)


Creation/In the image of...light (parent.) (Soul) psyche


Past/future lives (Siblings) (Spirit) pneuma


Human egoic mind (Child) (Physical) soma

In metaphysical terms, "spirit" has acquired a number of meanings: An incorporeal but ubiquitous, non-quantifiable substance or energy present individually in all living things. Unlike the concept of souls (often regarded as eternal and usually believed to pre-exist the body) a spirit develops and grows as an integral aspect of a living being. ~ Wikipedia

1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit (pneuma) and soul (psyche) and body (soma) be preserved....."


The 'soul' of an individual is one thing. (Future) and the spirit of the individual is another. (Past.) The 'human ego' mind is another all together. (Present.)


But yes - the science of physics has a theory that supports what the 'ancient' mystics have been trying teach all along.


DK

 

[Charles Stuart]

So many different theories...


Under another analogy, which has been used here before, the "Soul" could be compared to the incandescent wiring of a lamp, the "Spirit", or "Spiritual Body", to the light itself, and the "Physical Body" to its glass casing. The trilogy of "mind, body and soul"... :thumbsup:


IMHO, given the infinite variations in each of our lifetimes and destinies (and, according to what I know, the different and varied routes towards "enlightenment"), this theory would come across to me as being just as "unfair" as that of "one life, one death", and eternal absolution or condemnation based on the opportunities of just "one life". The only difference being that rather than referring to "physical life" we would be determining the same for "spiritual life". Who would determine such differences to each Soul? God?

 

[fiziwig]

Contest is defined as a conflict for the sake of a victory. What I was told by my five 'spiritual friends' standing on the other side looking back on life - reflects what fiziwig stated in his post. Not all 'souls' choose to come here. Those of us who do - the victory is in the challenge of it. There are no winners or losers ..... just the thrill of the challenge.


...snip...


It is not a 'me' game. It is not a 'you' game. Even by the definition of 'game' - it is a people experience. It is a 'we' game. It is not a game where we line up the winners on one side of the room and the losers on the other side of the room. It is a game where (in the end) all come out of the experience claiming victory. We don't do this alone. We do this by acting as a 'team' and working together. It is not about perfecting the 'individual soul' as much as it is perfecting the 'group consciousness' of humanity.


DK

I tend to joke around about life being "just a game", but believe me, it is a metaphor I take very seriously. But like you say, it's not the kind of "game" people usually think about as a game. It's more like a dance, or a play, or a big Renaissance Festival. We're all running around in these marvelous costumes, playing at being different things, having fun, helping each other, just soaking in every bit of the experience we can. Everyone who plays this game is a winner because the game is about the process, not about the "goal".


We are not here in order to get somewhere else, we are here in order to be here.

My main questioning, and I'm going to use a radical example here, is this: Can a serial killer rapist find himself on the other side in a state of "perfection"?

Let me quote Conversations with God (page 61) God speaking: "Hitler went to heaven. When you understand this, you will understand God."


--gary

 

[dking777]

Is reincarnation real? Or as Dr. Stevenson has noted, there may not be enough evidence to prove reincarnation, but there is enough evidence to make believing in reincarnation a reasonable thing to do.

Is reincarnation real? After my NDE, I spent time on a quest to understand what 'reality' was to various other minds. What does the 'human mindset' conceive or perceive as real - when actually - it is all an illusion. (According to the NDE I had anyway.) The best answer I found is "reality is what we make it." So - even though I had been given insight to various knowledge relating to the 'transmigration of the soul' - reincarnation was not a reality in my young life. It was beyond my grasp and I couldn't make heads or tails out of it with the 'logical' and 'rational' mindset I felt I was bound to.


My logical mind convinced me that any past life didn't belong to me. It belonged to my spirit. No future life belonged to me. It belonged to my soul. I could have cared less about it.


I was a teenager and had a passion for (what I think most normal male teens have a passion for,) automobiles. I looked at the 'human life' as a 'vessel' similar to a car. I knew I had three cars prior to waking up with amnesia. I had a 66 model, a 68 model and was then driving a 73 model. I owned each model, but the life of that car came to an end in my life and got scraped. Old cars end up in the salvage yard, just as the 'flesh and blood' vessel ends up in the graveyard. I felt that when the life of my 73 model ran its course - it was going to be exchanged for a new model - which it did and I ended up with a 78 model. Each car had a different style, body and personality. All I (as a human) cared about was my time from the birth certificate to the death certificate. That is all that belonged to me and that ownership was an illusion. My life, my body and all points in between belonged to the one who carried the 'deed of ownership' - which was my soul.


I felt I was in the 'drivers seat' but - I had a clear conscious understanding that sitting in the back seat directly behind me was my 'spirit.' Sitting to the left behind me was my 'soul.' I felt my position was to take directions through 'instinct' and intuition when life situations came up pertaining to their influence. Had I been in this world in a different body? No. Was I going to be in this world again in a different body? No. Was my spirit going to be in this world again or had it been in the world in the past? Yes. Who held the deed of ownership over all this? My soul. Who was I in all this? I was just the driver. I just gave a prayer in meditation to make my mind clear that when the soul or the spirit had to break through my thick head to get me instructions, lessons, or knowledge pertaining to a 'past life' or 'future life' situation that I could work on - on their behalf - then their situation would take priority in my life and in my mind. I just felt I was along for the ride and was out to enjoy my ride before it got put into the junk yard heap. (Graveyard.)


My soul would get a new 'vessel' or new model in the future, but I (persona) would take my place in the back seat of the new model with the 'spirit' and have a whole different view point looking over the shoulder of the 'new driver' or 'new persona.'

Reality, in everyday usage, means "the state of things as they actually exist." Literally, the term denotes what is real; in its widest sense, this includes everything that is, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible. Reality in this sense includes being and sometimes is considered to include nothingness, as well. By contrast, the term existence is often restricted solely to being (compare with nature).
In common usage, existence is the world of which we are aware through our senses and persists independently without them. In academic philosophy the word has a more specialized meaning, being contrasted with essence, which specifies different forms of existence as well as different identity conditions for objects and properties.


In philosophy, essence is the attribute or set of attributes that make an object or substance what it fundamentally is, and which it has by necessity, and without which it loses its identity. Essence is contrasted with accident: a property that the object or substance has contingently, without which the substance can still retain its identity.


According to Locke, personal identity (the self) "depends on consciousness, not on substance" nor on the soul. We are the same person to the extent that we are conscious of our past and future thoughts and actions in the same way as we are conscious of our present thoughts and actions. If consciousness is this "thought" which "that goes along with the substance ... which makes the same person", then personal identity is only founded on the repeated act of consciousness: "This may show us wherein personal identity consists: not in the identity of substance, but... in the identity of consciousness". For example, one may claim to be a reincarnation of Plato, therefore having the same soul substance. However, one would be the same person as Plato only if one had the same consciousness of Plato's thoughts and actions that he himself did. Therefore, self-identity is not based on the soul. One soul may have various personalities.

In the end of my own evaluation of it (a year after my NDE at the age of 18) - I concluded for the sake of discovering my own self-identity that reincarnation had no 'reality' to me at that time in my life. It may have a reality to my 'soul' but my mindset (conscious viewpoint) was limited and restricted.


Prior to my own direct experiences with it - I feel it would have been impossible for any worldly instruction, evidence, personal testimony, or school of thought to have convinced my mindset of the reality of reincarnation. I don't feel it is the world's place to prove - or disprove the reality of reincarnation as much as it was the responsibility of the soul. Sort of a 'need to know' basis which isn't fulfilled based solely on curiosity. Just some rambling thoughts.

 

[dking777]

Well, in my view the notion of a "set destination/future" would necessarily indeed imply in the non-existence of "free-will", and again I cannot envisage this concept as correct.

This concept came up over and over again back when I was visiting the University's trying to put my experience into perspective. I later focused my time on a group of young 18 year old minds. The reason I selected the mindset of that age group was due to fact that they were putting the childhood behind them - and facing the world on their own. How much of a person's philosophy of life influenced by the authority of parents prior to adult life? How much of that had they accepted and rejected? They too argued and debated the concept of free-will? Where did they come up with the idea of, or definition of what free will is supposed to be - or what it actually is?


The first question I asked them was - "Do you choose your parents?" If a body and mind starts out with a blank slate on a human level (ego) without the ability to make that choose - where is free will? If the first 18 years of their lives are determined by a fate - totally out of their hands - where is their free will. When does 'free-will' become an independent agent and work against the grain that is already set the moment a baby is born and takes it's first breath.


I challenged my friends to consider a what if scenario. What if, the moment they were born to the parents that had conceived them - and they were switched with a baby around the world in India - and raised in a total different environment for the first 18 years of their lives. Instead of being raised in country influenced by a Christian philosophy, for them to be raised in a Hindu philosophy. Then - we (for the sake of science and experiment) could all meet up at the same place, in the same room we were having our conversation at that moment. If we could do that like a science lab and put their two different lives side by side on a microscope slide and examine every minute detail - how much of their personalities, experiences, philosophy, desires, goals, dreams, ambitions or persona of life be the same 'due' to the agent of free will?


Free will does not determine how a person thinks or reacts to the environment around him.


I challenged my friends to challenge their own concept of and understanding of 'free-will.' I felt my friends had been sold a piece of the "Brooklyn Bridge." The ownership being - only in their mind - and without a proper 'bill of goods' to prove their claim that 'free will' shapes our destiny.


I gave them an example. If a person walks out the door to go to the mall to buy a gift for someone - he has made a choice with his own mind. But - if along the way - a plane falls out of the sky and crashes on the road before him - and he gets stuck in the traffic jam while the proper services come out to clean up the destruction - where is his 'free will' in shaping his choice to get to the store on time to buy the gift for a party. Due to circumstances beyond his 'free will' choice - he not only misses out on buying gift - he also misses the party.


The concept that 'free will' was the product of the worldly mind was totally foreign to me after my NDE. I told my friends that life in this world in a physical body was like a ride on a water slide. Once your spirit 'slipped' into physical body of a baby - your course was set. You were not going to get to the end until that moment when the 'spirit' slipped out of the body. Your mind would not - could not and never would change the motion that 'physical body' was set to take. It was impossible to 'change your course' midway through the ride.

The idea that the mind 'thought' in variables along the way was not going change the outcome set in motion with time. A person could 'think' that if they would have taken a right turn instead of a left turn - while stuck in a traffic jam that their fate would have been different - (and if they could go back in time and change that thought - then - yeah - they could change their fate. But you can't. So the idea that people ponder that "what if" scenario leads to ponder different outcomes of fate by decisions they make in the present. Truth is - the 'heart' will guide you through instinct and intuition as much as logic and reasoning.


I challenged my friends to ponder their 'mindset' based on the illusion of time - as compared to the 'inner heart' or 'inner essence' they were born with in the undertow. To thine own heart be true. Your heart will guide you to make the decisions your determined to make one way or the other.


When you get stuck in traffic - you can scream, curse, slam your fists against the wheel and curse your 'bad luck' or - you can turn on the stereo and enjoy the peace and serenity of the moment fate has handed you - and meditate on other matters with harmony.


There is the 'mind of the body' and there is the 'mind of the heart.' The 'mind of the body' is the one that starts out requiring a 'diaper' to be wrapped around its behind - because all it knows how to do is 'crap' on itself. Is that a free will choice - or just a baby that hasn't learned to think for itself yet? Is that the type of mind you would trust your future, fate and 'free will' to?


So the question is - does free will belong to the 'mind of mankind' or to the 'heart of humanity?"


Just food for thought I once shared with a group of young minds as they entered their adult 'thinking' life.


DK

 

[Nightrain]

DKing,


I find your insight very interesting, and your intellect even more so. But your view of free-will is a little troubling, and I wonder if you have given those young minds a fair assessment as to whether they should believe in free-will or not.


There is no doubt in my mind that you came through your horrific accident and NDE with some intense and soul-searching ideas and questions. But, I wonder if you haven't come through it all with a certain amount of bitterness over what happened. The reason I say this is because I remember being bitter and resentful after my own NDE. Not all of us come through such an experience with the same kind of transformation as those written about in books. Transformed yes, but not always in the same way.


Like you, I went through all the what-if's, and felt permanently marked for an unchanging pre-determined life from then on. For many years afterward I felt trapped by the reality of my now limited existence, realizing that my scars and experiences would henceforth close me off from so many possibilities that existed before my "experience". No matter how hard I fought and tried to open those doors, they refused to budge for me, and I felt as though everything was, indeed, pre-determined and no longer within my power to change.


When the concept of reincarnation presented itself as karmic justification, I was certain that I had done something wrong in a past life to have deserved such punishment in this life. I realize that I have no right to assume that anyone else is going through the same doubts; but, what you described sounded so familiar, that I wanted to offer my own insight regarding free-will.


My own NDE was transformative beyond a doubt, although I don't remember the insights or visions that were given to me at that time, if any. But, like you, that was where my search began. I've been at it now for 42 years, and I can't say that I have found enough answers to understand the nature and purpose of this life. But, I can report being finally convinced that free-will is the most essential thing necessary for reincarnation to exist. And, I believe that I can't remember what I set out to accomplish before being born, because the choices I made here on earth would not have been freely willed. It would have been more like reading a textbook which included all the answers. I now realize, that certain decisions made during this life have changed my path, somewhat. Yes, those decisions followed certain patterns; but my path has certainly changed along the way. Nothing was set in stone. I have arrived at this place and time through my own choices, and I may have learned some things that I could not have predicted before being born. I also may have messed a few things up because of free-will; but I know there will be plenty of future opportunities to address those issues -- if not during this lifetime, then perhaps in future lives.


-Nightrain

 

[stardis]

And, I believe that I can't remember what I set out to accomplish before being born, because the choices I made here on earth would not have been freely willed. It would have been more like reading a textbook which included all the answers. I now realize, that certain decisions made during this life have changed my path, somewhat. Yes, those decisions followed certain patterns; but my path has certainly changed along the way. Nothing was set in stone. I have arrived at this place and time through my own choices, and I may have learned some things that I could not have predicted before being born. I also may have messed a few things up because of free-will; but I know there will be plenty of future opportunities to address those issues -- if not during this lifetime, then perhaps in future lives.
-Nightrain

My thoughts are expressed in your thoughts, Nightrain.


My personal experience has convinced me that a life plan does exist for me and I am sure that it is one that I agreed to follow before rebirth. I know from personal experience that I am free to change that plan and to step aside from the path that I need to be following, but I also know (from a spiritual intervention) that it is important to make the right major choices - although I don't have to do so.


It has seemed to me that one of the most important reasons for having a meditative life is to be able to sense your path amidst all the chaos in life and to be able to hear the small voice within that is guiding us in making the right choices in life.


I suddenly feel like like getting out some writings of Alan Watts.

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi all,


This is a debate forum, and not a classroom, which is why I stepped back for a while hoping others would join in before replying. I believe the vast majority of us here have undergone one or more experiences that have been beyond our normal understanding of "reality", and have come here in an attempt to share them and learn from others. I know that all the years in which I have been participating here have been a wonderful opportunity to do so.


Gary, I have already apologised for having entered the debate, after having been away for so long, in a manner which may have come across as a "bite in the but", but the real reason behind it was my concern that any kids coming into this forum might start believing that, under the realization that we are in our essence indestructible and eternal Souls, one is free to act as one pleases with no consequences, seeing as "we are already perfect beings and will end up in Heaven anyway". From my own experience, I believe (or rather "know") this not to be true.


To understand God, we must, yes, believe that there is no "eternal hell", and that ALL Souls have the opportunity to learn and progress, but IMHO one always reaps what one sows.


To use a personal example, which I believe would be the most appropriate, when I was twenty-six I divorced my first wife, with whom I had my eldest son, in one of those typical situations in which "she left me for my best friend". I could not begin to tell of just quite how painful it all was, but if one can imagine one's wife and son suddenly leaving to go and live with another man, and one's once best friend at that, one might have a partial notion of just what I went through.


For a long time I questioned myself as to why I had to go through all that, or "why God had done that to me". It was only when I had a sequence of recurring dreams, which seemed to have sprout from my subconscious mind, that I came to learn that in my last incarnation as a German soldier by the name of Karl Heiss I had taken her life when she was pregnant of a child of mine, and that my friend had been her father then... It was only then that I came to a better understanding. Their bond then explained their connection to each other now, and although it was not "tit for tat", I did undergo a similar pain of loss as the one I had previously inflicted upon them. They are still married to this day, and have two daughters. And, although this knowledge didn't exactly relieve me from the pain, it certainly brought me greater comfort and understanding.


As for Hitler, were this so and quite certainly there woud be no justice. Last I heard (and I am dead serious about this), he had not yet had the opportunity to reincarnate for the simple reason of the difficulty of finding someone who would take him. The route to "enlightenment" is a long one, but it can be made longer or shorter by our choices. As for him, I pity him for all he will still have to undergo in his future incarnations...


Dking, I am quite certain that we DO, to a large extent, choose our parents, but the process is not one which can be entirely decided only by our own free-will. Were one to believe in this and indeed we would have to discard the existence of a God and of Spiritual Masters and Guides. The reasons as to why one should be at a certain location at a certain time, such as a plane crash, are indeed beyond our own conscious choices.


One other thing (and in this I am aware that I run the risk of "shooting my own foot") is that, to the best of my knowledge, there are several "spheres" to the Spiritual Realms, and that the Soul or Spirit, when it leaves the physical body, finds itself in the sphere most coherent with the vibrations of its state of consciousness. If it is true that "consciousness creates" in the physical realms, this is even more so in the spiritual. Just because a Soul is in the spiritual realms, this does not mean that it is instantly struck by a bolt of lightning and is suddenly aware of all the answers. One other thing is that, from what I know, one thing the Spirits do in the Spiritual Realms is to study also, for not even they have the answers to all the questions...


Charles

 

[dking777]

I find your insight very interesting, and your intellect even more so. But your view of free-will is a little troubling, and I wonder if you have given those young minds a fair assessment as to whether they should believe in free-will or not.

I am only able to touch on the tip of the iceberg here as far as the depth of our conversation went. I was 20 when I met my friends. They were 17. They knew the situation I was dealing with. A 17 year old girlfriend of mine had been murdered. I was dealing with the trauma and shock of the aftermath. My friends were helping me deal with the grief. I told them I had seen the headlines of her death prior to her murder and tried every way I could to stop it. From that, I shared the whole story of my car accident, the mystical aftermath and the 'abilities' I had to live with. Certain people I touched - I could tell them the exact time and nature of their deaths. I could tell them the exact minute they were going to die. I had been able to do this since I was 18 years old. I would ask people if they wanted to know this sort of information. Most people don't want to know this. I felt 'people' blinded themselves to certain truths for a reason. I was looking for that reason when I spoke to my friends.


My friends tested me in other ways. I could tell them all the front page news stories 2 weeks prior to them being printed. Our discussion eventually evolved to 'past lives, future lives, reincarnation, and soul mates.' My friends where at that stage in the mating game and dreaming of what sort of soul mate they were going to end up with in old age. They didn't want to know their deaths - but they wanted to know what sort of mate they would end up with in old age. They type that had them throwing dishes at one another - or the type that made their homes like the Claus couple from the North Pole. I told them the answer to that was already in their own hearts and I didn't believe in giving away the surprise. My friends wouldn't leave me alone with it until I gave them something.


I told them they were all going to be Grandpas - so that should be hint enough for them. They wanted to know more. One, I told he was going to have a home set up like the North Pole. (Harmony.) One friend I refused to answer his questions and told him to seek it from his heart. Better he found out on his own than through me. He pestered me until I told him, "Okay. You asked for it. You date from a past life isn't with a female. It is with a male. The love of your life in old age isn't going to be a woman. It is going to be a guy." My other two friends laughed and he got upset. I told him it was the truth and it was in his heart already. Why he wanted to fool himself thinking otherwise was beside me to know. He was a fundamentalist and this really didn't set well with him. He felt he was the type to get married. I told him he was going to get married - but she was going to leave him high and dry - and that was going to set up with the guy. Not a guy his age - but a younger guy. (Of course - I knew more about it than I was letting on - but I liked watching my friend get upset and I was just giving him hints to look inside his own heart. His heart carried the blueprint master plan for his life. I didn't feel it was my place and he kept forcing me to reveal things to him.)


That is the foundation for our argument and debate about changing one's fate or destiny came from. He felt he had the 'power' and 'might' of free will. He felt God was exposing the truth to him (through me) to work to be a good Christian and save himself from a 'fiendish' fate that was coming to him at a crossroad in the future. I just laughed and bet him a dollar he was never going to change his fate. The soul mate he was destined to spend time with in his old age for the sake of 'divine love' was a younger guy. I eventually let him off the hook and told him - his soul mate connection in this life (due to a date from a previous life) was his Son. Which, that made him happy. In order to get to that soul mate - he was going to have to make the mistakes needed with a lousy marriage that was going to end in a bitter divorce. I told him all this prior to him even meeting a girl he eventually proposed to. He told me I was wrong over and over again. Until 2006.


I called my old friends whom I haven't seen or heard from since 1983. They were all Grandpa's. My one friend said he owed me the shirt off his back. The marriage had ended just as I had described and the love of his life in his old age -was his oldest Son. (His wife had kept him from him during the divorce, but when he turned of age - they were making up for lost time.)


I had discussed the fact that after my NDE - I had the ability to see the future as if it had already happened. I was dealing with the idea that no matter what it was (as in the case of a double homicide of two good friends) I didn't have the power to change it. My definition of free will had me believe I could change the future. I couldn't. I had to change my definition of 'free will' in the aftermath of a double homicide I had 'foresight' of. I told my friends to thank their lucky stars they couldn't see the future before it happened - because it wasn't a blessing as much as it was a big burden.


I never said there was no free will. I made the claim that free will was decided in the heart dispute the 'blindness' that plagued the human mindset. Free will was something the 'spirit' decided upon prior to the birth of the physical body. Everyone was going to follow after their own heart - regardless of what their mind would have them think otherwise in the process.


DK

 

[dking777]

Dking, I am quite certain that we DO, to a large extent, choose our parents, but the process is not one which can be entirely decided only by our own free-will. Were one to believe in this and indeed we would have to discard the existence of a God and of Spiritual Masters and Guides. The reasons as to why one should be at a certain location at a certain time, such as a plane crash, are indeed beyond our own conscious choices.

Hi Charles,


The point I was trying to stress to my friends was about the two mindsets. I felt on a human level - we don't have that sort of choice given to us - but on a spiritual level - yes - we do have a hand in that selection process.


Due to my amnesia - I woke up with a blank mind. I had to go backwards to find memories of the first woman I met. She said she was my Mother. Now - on a human level - my mind was scrambled and I was trying to find something that would give me a memory of the fact this woman was my Mother. I found the only memory I had access to. I described it to her. She said it was impossible for me to have that memory in me. It was a memory of the day she and my Dad had brought me home from the hospital. She said it was the first day we had all met. I told her,


"Oh no. We go way back. You and him had different bodies - but we have memories hidden away when we shared different lives together."


I considered both her and my Dad soul mates to me and what every was on my 'mind' at that moment when I was one day old - wasn't from this world. It was from the spiritual realm and it gave me clear knowledge that my 'spirit' had chosen them as parents for a specific reason.


So - as a baby just one day old from the hospital - I realized that I was born with access to some sort of intelligence that was superior to the 'human knowledge' that had been imposed on my mind all those years between the day I was born and the day after my 18th birthday when I woke up with amnesia. It was as if - I threw everything in the 'garbage can' and went right back to discovering the knowledge I had been born with prior to living those 18 years.


So - I always identified that there were two minds within us. The far 'superior' spiritual mind of sight - and the inferior 'human mind' of blindness. I had discovered this time and time again speaking to people in those years after my NDE.


One of my friends felt it was impossible to retain a memory of a baby since a baby couldn't think for itself yet. I asked him for permission to 'tap his heart.' I could reach in a persons spirit (with permission) and deliver that memory right to his head. I told him to clear his mind and start describing everything he was seeing in his mind. I told him the vagueness of it would make it seem like vivid dream. He thought it was a parlor trick and went along. When it happened - he freaked out. He described it for us and then I told him to go talk to his Mom and not to tell her where the 'images' or 'idea' came from. It was so vivid - he could describe what his Mom was wearing that day and could even describe the perfume she had on while she was carrying him. I told him the 'memory' would be more inclined to 'feelings' and 'sensations' than thoughts. He wouldn't remember what his 'baby's mind' was thinking - but he could recall the overwhelming sensation of being in a 'body of flesh' again.


He went home and described it to his Mom and she was just as amazed that he was able to describe it and trigger recall from her about the brand of perfume she had bought specifically to wear the day she brought her first born son home from the hospital. The whole idea was to get him to admit that the first time he saw her - she was no stranger to him that day. He didn't have a mindset that allowed him to embrace the concept of reincarnation - but admitted that if that 'memory' was correct - he felt he had lived an entire life with her somewhere else before.


Back in the day - I was trying to discover why we come into a 'state' of being 'deaf, dumb and blind' and then stumbling around in the darkness - just to find and discover the knowledge we were born with - hidden away inside of us in our own 'inner heart.'


(I did this experiment with many of my peers back in my youth - and they would all confirm and verify it with their parents.)


Going back to the question of whether 'reincarnation is real or not, - I do believe the reality of it is hidden away in the past and that first day home from the hospital. I feel that in our hearts, we are still fresh from that 'spiritual realm of home' and know (in a spiritual tone of knowing) their is a blueprint design hidden away in our hearts - that very first day.


DK

 

[dking777]

Under another analogy, which has been used here before, the "Soul" could be compared to the incandescent wiring of a lamp, the "Spirit", or "Spiritual Body", to the light itself, and the "Physical Body" to its glass casing. The trilogy of "mind, body and soul"... :thumbsup:

I had NDE's as a child as well, due to a cardiac condition. One of the analogies I used as a child was a flashlight. I would turn on a flash light and put it in one hand. I would us the other hand to cast a shadow on the wall. My analogy was the 'flashlight' (energy source) was the soul. The beam from the flashlight was the spirit. The shadow on the wall was the human body.

IMHO, given the infinite variations in each of our lifetimes and destinies (and, according to what I know, the different and varied routes towards "enlightenment"), this theory would come across to me as being just as "unfair" as that of "one life, one death", and eternal absolution or condemnation based on the opportunities of just "one life". The only difference being that rather than referring to "physical life" we would be determining the same for "spiritual life". Who would determine such differences to each Soul? God?

I don't know why this sort of thing bothers some people. I have had discussions in the past where this idea troubles people's minds. The human mind (ego) likes to feel it is in charge and there is no one above them in the hierarchy of the natural order of things. I always looked at it as a team effort. I was the lowest man on the totem pole - so to speak. The intelligence of the spirit was far superior to my own. The intelligence of the soul was far superior than both the intelligence of the spirit and worldly mind (ego) combined. If I made decisions without consulting my 'spirit' or my 'soul' on the matter - then I was going to be making some lousy (foolish) choices. (A dark path.) If I looked for direct direction from them, (spirit or soul) then it would be wise choices leading to a "path of light."


The 'spirit' or 'soul' or any spiritual entity has never been able to talk me into anything that I (on a human level) couldn't or wouldn't agree with. In the end, they always get me to see things their way. (Through the eyes of the spirit instead of through the eyes of the flesh.) I had a mindset that allowed direct interaction while most (from what I was told) would settle for the subtle approach through instinct and intuition. It was all the same thing when it came out in the wash on the other end.


One of the mystical themes that came to me in my NDE and during the aftermath was - the 'nature of man' verses the 'nature of spirit.' There was a conflict between the light and dark elements of the world and our 'dual' heritage. I was told (in spirit) to look for the inherit nature of man in a mythical theme found in a legendary name of "Samael."

“Samael” literally means “Blind God” or “God of the Blind” in Aramaic. This being is considered not only blind, or ignorant of its own origins, but may in addition be evil; its name is also found in Judaica as the Angel of Death and in Christian demonology. This leads to a further comparison with Satan.


In the Apocryphon of John circa 120-180 AD, the Demiurge arrogantly declares that he has made the world by himself:


“Now the archon (ruler) who is weak has three names. The first name is Yaltabaoth, the second is Saklas (“fool”), and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said, ‘I am God and there is no other God beside me,’ for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come.”


He is Demiurge and maker of man, but as a ray of light from above enters the body of man and gives him a soul, Yaldabaoth is filled with envy; he tries to limit man's knowledge by forbidding him the fruit of knowledge in paradise.


Wikipedia

Going back to the analogy of life being a 'game.' In all games there is usually a conflict between opposing forces. The 'dark' nature wants to keep the worldly minds blind to their divine nature.


Does man create his own destiny without regard to his soul, or does the soul create the destiny with regard to the Creator of all souls?


If the final outcome of the game plan is - eternal life for all souls - what is so unfair? In the end (from what I was told) all souls end up home again. Light claims victory over darkness. Where we are at in the current moment of that personal journey - is just where we are at.


DK

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi DK,


What you have shared has been greatly interesting. I have no doubt that our "spiritual consciousness" must be far greater in Spirit than while hampered by the limitations of our "physical consciousness cap"...


And to all you kids out there, as Fiziwig said: HAVE FUN!!! "Life" is a truly wonderful thing. Just do so with reponsibility, and with consideration for others. Then you will have nothing to "fear"... In my own case, I know for certain that if I had treated my first wife with more love and care, quite certainly I could have minimized or even annuled the pending "negative karma". I am quite certain that this can be applied to all walks of life...


As they say: "Catholics believe in hell. Spiritualists know that they've already been there..."


My love to all of you,


Charles

 

[dking777]

In my own case, I know for certain that, again just as an example, had I treated my first wife with more love and care, quite certainly I could have minimized or even annuled the pending "negative karma". I am quite certain that this can be applied to all walks of life.

‘The greatest mistake you can make in life is to be continually fearing you will make one.’ — Elbert Hubbard
“If you don’t learn from your mistakes, that’s the biggest mistake.” - Donald Trump


‘Many people dream of success. To me, success can only be achieved through repeated failure and introspection.’ — Soichiro Honda


‘Any man can make mistakes, but only an idiot persists in his error.’ — Marcus Tullius Cicero


‘One of the reasons mature people stop learning is that they become less and less willing to risk failure.’ — John W. Gardner

One of the themes that came up with my friends was 'mistakes.' They wanted to avoid them and any sort of 'failure.' I felt 'mistakes' were 'hidden teachers' put in our path to help us learn what ever lesson we needed for the future. I didn't look at 'mistakes' as enemies to us as much as I looked at them as 'old friends' who taught us our lessons.


We have to take the 'good' with the 'bad' and make the 'best' out of it. We couldn't find the 'best' of it - until we embraced the good with the bad - and stopped worrying about the 'negative' aspect of some 'hidden failure.' (My friends were greatly influenced by the heaven and hell concept. I didn't believe in that after my NDE.)


To me, life in this world was about a journey to find your own inner and hidden heart. There are going to be mistakes along the way to help teach you what you need to know about that journey.


DK

 

[dking777]

There is no doubt in my mind that you came through your horrific accident and NDE with some intense and soul-searching ideas and questions. But, I wonder if you haven't come through it all with a certain amount of bitterness over what happened. The reason I say this is because I remember being bitter and resentful after my own NDE.

Going back over in my mind that time from the age of 18, my resentment wasn't the mystical aspect. It was the amnesia I had to suffer through in the aftermath. It was horrendous and caused massive migraine headaches. It was physical pain beyond description. It felt someone was standing behind me with a sledgehammer and pounding on top of my head. The NDE at the age of 18 was not my first - even though it 'appeared that way' in my amnesic mind. My Doctors, family and friends had all seen me 'die' before and come back to life. It was nothing new to them - even though it seemed new to me.


I had a very rare 'cardiac' condition at the age of six. I was constantly having seizures that led to cardiac and respiratory failure. There was not a person in my family who hadn't seen me dead for a period of five minutes or more during my childhood. One of my first NDE's was at the age of six and recorded by two trained and licensed physicians in a Doctors office. My Dad said that if he had to guess a number - he would guess that I died over a 1000 times from the age of 6 to the age of 17. My Doctors told me the same thing.


On my 18th birthday, it was like I was born into a new mind. My childhood became a 'past life' to me. I had no memory of it in normal sense. I didn't like being around people who knew me prior to my 18th birthday and moved away and started over. (When people tried to get me to remember my childhood that is when the sledgehammer pounding would start.)


I can remember my childhood now. I now have access to that 'past life' I lived during childhood. My first NDE was not at the age of six. It was the first time it got medical attention but the condition was something from my diaper years. My first 'out of body' experience was while I was in diapers. I was about a year old and kept the condition hidden away. I couldn't even speak sentences when I had my first NDE. My parents told me that when I first started talking I started with deeply profound mystical matters. They couldn't figure out where a child was getting those ideas.


I started talking about 'reincarnation' as soon as I began talking as a child. It was a theme I spoke of often throughout childhood with family members up to the age of 15. I didn't stop talking about it because it became less of theme in my young mind. I stopped talking about it because family members couldn't understand the parables I was using. (The agreement was reached between my Mom and I because I also had 'third eye' vision of a young friends future life and knew he was going to die as a teenager and never reach adulthood. My Mother didn't want to know this and considered it sacred knowledge from God's mouth to my ears. I tended to agree with her after awhile.)


So it was strange having my mind flip. Everyone in my family was waiting for me to reach adult hood because I had swore I would never talk to them again about the 'mystical' insights until I reached a mature age. (They had authority over my mind in raising me and I didn't want them replacing my understanding with their fundamentalism.)


I spent the first year after my NDE at 18 going around and interviewing every family member I grew up with. (My Doctors had advised this.) Every family member who had been around me in childhood said two things when describing me. Happy and mystical. When I made new friends from the age of 18 to 21, I would ask them to describe me - and compare me to others they had met. They said the same thing. Happy and mystical.


I did have 'mystical insight' to reincarnation at the age of 18 and I tossed it aside. I didn't feel that sort of thing was practical. I was more concerned with the here and now. It was a like a theme that 'haunted me' and wouldn't go away. The more I tried to run from it the more it came after me. Sort of like a shadow and every time I turned around, there it was. (To illustrate how quick it came haunting. I had to meet with one of the Police Officers who investigated the accident. I told him, "I can remember you when you wore a different body. I don't remember anything about you in this new body of yours but I have a ton of memories when you were in your old body. How can that be?) That was a cop who knew me when I was 15 years old. This happened a great deal with people. I wouldn't be able to recall anything about their current live but memories of them being in a different body would flood my mind and I was trying to figure out why. If they couldn't remember it, why should I. The saying, if ya can't remember something it must not be that important took hold. I was trying to look for a switch and switch it off. (I found the switch and don't offer this as a service. It was very troublesome for me.)


As far as the 'mystical trip' I could remember at the age of 18, I didn't feel any sort of resentment or bitterness about that. I was very happy about that sort of insight. I had no fear of death what so ever. Many people I spoke with back in those days all walked with some sort of fear of the 'unknown of death.' I was a very harmonious and content lad back in my day.


The only drawback for me was the loss of memories and having to live my adult life as if it was a 'new incarnation' and walking in 'denial' of my past life in childhood. It was an introduction how this life does have a 'denial' factor involved in us all concerning past life memories.


I did meet with 10 other teens who had suffered a life threatening physical trauma that led to loss of vital signs. I found the resentment and bitterness factor wasn't so much to do with the mystical element involved as the rehabilitation process of trying to recovery from the scars of the injuries we carried inside as well as outside. Five had memories of the "Light" while the other five didn't. The rehabilitation of the physical trauma was the same regardless of the memories of an out of body experience or mystical trip into the light.


DK

 

[dking777]

Proving that reincarnation is real is a little like proving that the color red is real. For someone who can see the color for themselves no proof is necessary, but for someone who is blind, or color blind we can only present evidence that there is such a thing. Each person who cannot see the color red for themselves must then decide if they find the evidence convincing.


Or as Dr. Stevenson has noted, there may not be enough evidence to prove reincarnation, but there is enough evidence to make believing in reincarnation a reasonable thing to do.

I found some interesting poll results concerning the belief in reincarnation.

• According to a 2005 Gallup poll, 20 percent of U.S. adults believe in reincarnation. Recent surveys by the Barna Group, a Christian research nonprofit organization, have found that a quarter of U.S. Christians, including 10 percent of all born-again Christians, embrace reincarnation as their favored end-of-life view.
  
• Democrats are more likely than Republicans to say they believe in reincarnation (by 14 percentage points)
  
• Only 10% of white evangelicals believe in reincarnation while 24% of mainline Protestants and 25% of white Catholics believe in it.
  
• According a Harris Poll survey conducted late last year, (2009) approximately 24 percent of Americans believe in reincarnation while 68 percent believe in the survival of the soul after death.
  
• Notably, reincarnation was the least believable items on The Harris Poll’s list of things people believe in, which included miracles, heaven, angels, the devil, ghosts, UFOs, and witches, among others.
  
• 8% of respondents in a recent FOX News/Opinion Dynamics poll say they believe there is a chance that Elvis could be alive.
  

I fall into another demographic poll result.

Amber Wells was a student at the University of Connecticut and wrote a research paper based on her study of the near-death experience for her senior honors thesis under the direction of Dr. Ken Ring. Her paper was published in the Journal of Near-Death Studies in the fall of 1993. In her study, 70 percent of the group of near-death experiencers demonstrated belief in reincarnation. In contrast, a Gallup Poll found that only 23 percent of the general population endorse this belief. Previous research has indicated that, following a near-death experience, the group tended to exhibit a significant shift in their beliefs on a wide range of subjects including a general tendency toward an increased openness to the idea of reincarnation. Ms. Wells' study was designed to examine the factors underlying this belief shift.
Reincarnation and NDE Research

After my NDE in 1978 - I had to do my own study. The investigators wanted permission to go public with their report. They felt it was a verifiable miracle that I was alive. My car had been traveling at 140 MPH and had a head on collision with a embankment. I walked away without a scratch on the outside - but a ton of reconstructive surgery had been done to repair the internal injuries. This was all verified with medical reports then and in later years. I had to consent before allowing those files to go public. I didn't want to talk about it as a teenager. I still haven't signed consent.


So - in my own private research - I went to the scholarly minds of the University's and spoke to many a mind on various subjects including psychology, science, theology, sociology and on and on. I eventually was led to politicians and spoke to Democrats and Republicans alike.


The question over and over was - what sort of impact would it have on society and the minds of - if the belief factor took a dramatic swing from a minority opinion to the majority opinion?


Things haven't changed much. The two who opposed it most were the Republican mindset and the Evangelical mindset. They felt a popular belief in reincarnation would destroy our American way of life. So they were not fighting against a 'belief' per say - as much as they felt 'immature' minds wouldn't be able to handle that sort of dramatic mystical truth without falling into major obstacles and creating more problems than solving. They felt that sort of truth had to remain hidden under the carpet. Those who had a need for it - would find the lump (parable expression) and go for what they needed to know while leaving the rest undisturbed.


If I signed consent and people started asking me questions about the 'afterlife, the miracle that took place, the why's and what for's were going to led me to stand by the truth as it was given to me to know. I couldn't avoid the theme. It was inevitable for it to come out in my own testimony.


(I had studied my own physical and medical evidence - and every Doctor who has had sight of it has said the same thing. Once released to the public mainstream - it will be a catalyst for world change on opinion about the 'afterlife' and a 'higher power' that produces miracles. If I went down tomorrow for a medical image - the same 'signs' of a miracle are still present inside of me. I have insight that tells me - this is going to happen before the end of this year.)


So I have been intrigued by the idea behind fiziwig's question for many years now.


Going back to my own research question after my NDE, how would it change society if popular opinion and belief in 'reincarnation' was the majority opinion instead of a minority opinion. If people were able to embrace this as a truth - openly (without the ridicule associated with UFO's attached,) how would it change how we inter-react with one another on spiritual matters of faith?


What are the benefits of a belief in reincarnation as opposed to the benefits of 'non-belief' in reincarnation? Just curious what others here have an opinion on regarding that.


DK

 

[dking777]

Government Research.


To give you all an impression of how much attention my medical evidence got 'behind the scenes' away from the public's eye, it led to a private telephone call from the then President. I had a nice down home chat with him about many things including the responsibility of leadership. (He was a country boy at heart so it was very easy to have a pleasant conversation with him.)


He was facing the 'energy crisis' and we spoke about this as well. I wanted to remain my own independent contractor - and shied away from getting directly involved with too much government business, but it opened up doors to discuss the matter with political minds in positions of leadership. (I was just a teenager and my main interest was music, cars and looking for the right mate for pleasure with this body of mine.)


I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone now a days - how cloak and dagger the government is about many things. I was told that government agencies had funded many various projects in the past concerning reincarnation and came up with surprising results leading to a positive conclusion in the reality of it.


What was their angle and take on it? If a person had died who had access to top level secret information concerning national security interests - what sort of protection did the government have - if this 'person' was born anew in another incarnation. Would the vital information be vulnerable to exposure and put the Nation's interest in jeopardy? If a person swore out an oath in a previous incarnation - would he be bound to continue his obligation and duty to his country? What if he was born into a new incarnation and became a national of a country that was considered an 'enemy of the state' as Russia was looked at back in the day? Would his new alliance with the 'enemy' make him a traitor to his old country - or - were there safeguards in place with 'spiritual laws' that individual souls had to adhere to. What protection would society have if these spiritual laws were violated?


I had no answers to all these questions.


My Grandfather was my spiritual adviser on all matters after my NDE and I consulted with him after I spoke to the government minds. My Grandpa referred me to a scripture which he thought applied literally as well as figuratively.

• Luke 11:52, "Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered."
  

I was naive at that time and asked him why he felt that applied. He told me most politicians start out as lawyers.


When it comes to reincarnation being a proven scientific fact - what would happen if 'Nazi hunters' tracked down the location of Hitler incarnated into a new body. Would they be as forgiving as God had been and let his last life slide un-noticed or would there be legal ramifications to be met since reincarnation would be legally recognized as a fact. Would the world pick up the ball and try to prosecute criminals from the past who had avoided prosecution before?


As one official mind expressed to me - declaring 'reincarnation' as a fact of life, would open up a whole new can of worms that many minds in position of leadership didn't want to have to address.


Just food for thought that was presented to me when it comes to scientifically proving reincarnation as a fact of life.


DK

 

[Nightrain]

Hi DK,


I hope that your inherent knowledge and wisdom will forgive the fact that so many of us are reasonably leery of such claims as you've mentioned on this Forum as well as your impressive website. My own background is but a humble example of how people have been lied to, and told to have blind faith in things that have no acceptable proof. I, and many like me, still bear the physical and emotional scars of lies that were fed to us by our church, our teachers, our parents and our government. Thus, there would be little wonder, if some people react with pronounced discernment and doubt.


You are very fortunate to be in the position of personal conviction, experience, and validation that has been made available. Your proximity to friends and family, who have been convinced of your claims, is also a very fortunate circumstance, not only for them, but for you as well. However, most of us here are not so fortunate. I'm sure you can understand the difficulty I would have in accepting your claims at face value. God knows, that I would like to have validation of what you seem to know, because I wish to believe in something that puts our knowledge in a proper perspective. The truth is important to us all.


So much of what you say sounds reasonable, but we have all been led down the rosy path of fantasy before. Most of us have already placed our faith in one thing or another, and we've been badly burned by doing so. I would like to think that our minds are still open in spite of our bad experiences; but that you might also understand the bitter tinge of resentment some of us might have for unsubstantiated claims.


I do believe that many of us are able to "feel" some truths within the depths of our souls; and I would dare say that many of us here share the same common belief that the soul is immortal, and that reincarnation is a fact. But, when we get into the nitty-gritty of the details, we have only our personal experiences and memories to guide us the rest of the way. As for spirit guides and mediums, unless we each have had our own validation of such things, it is difficult for us to suspend our doubts.


It may be quite true, as you say, that we have the means within ourselves to discern and experience the truth. However, one might bear in mind, that many of us have already been searching with every means possible for truths that remain obscured by an impenetrable barrier. And some of us have justifiable reasons to wonder what we might have done in the past to deserve the karma that keeps us in ignorance.


As regards your question as to the benefits of either belief or non-belief in reincarnation, I personally see no benefit whatsoever any kind of ignorance, whether it is self imposed or forced upon us by any means and for any reason. If it exists, we MUST know the truth. And I believe that we must keep searching for the truth with every means at our disposal. And, to accept anything on pure faith is to stop searching.


-Nightrain

 

[Jody]

If a person had died who had access to top level secret information concerning national security interests - what sort of protection did the government have - if this 'person' was born anew in another incarnation. Would the vital information be vulnerable to exposure and put the Nation's interest in jeopardy? If a person swore out an oath in a previous incarnation - would he be bound to continue his obligation and duty to his country? What if he was born into a new incarnation and became a national of a country that was considered an 'enemy of the state' as Russia was looked at back in the day? Would his new alliance with the 'enemy' make him a traitor to his old country - or - were there safeguards in place with 'spiritual laws' that individual souls had to adhere to. What protection would society have if these spiritual laws were violated?

I agree this can open a very messy can of worms. For example, I strongly believe I was a high-level member of a "secret society" in a PL -- one that wouldn't even let me in today because of my sex. And I personally think secret societies are dangerous because they can easily be infiltrated by criminals that can use that secrecy and the power of its collective members to get away with some really horrible things. Am I under any obligation to this secret society not to divulge anything I might still remember about it, because I took an oath in a PL? Interesting question ...

 

[dking777]

As regards your question as to the benefits of either belief or non-belief in reincarnation, I personally see no benefit whatsoever any kind of ignorance, whether it is self imposed or forced upon us by any means and for any reason. If it exists, we MUST know the truth. And I believe that we must keep searching for the truth with every means at our disposal. And, to accept anything on pure faith is to stop searching.

Hi Nightrain,


I appreciate your comments and it triggered recall of a conversation I had with my Grandfather the summer after my NDE at the age of 18. My Grandfather knew me better than any other man alive. He had been at the hospital the night I was born and had gone though the mystical side effects of my multiply NDE's as a child. He was once again called to my side to help me adjust to an adult mind.


I could not recall the times in the past I had spoken to him about mystical insights to reincarnation as he had a memory of. I told him I was being haunted by the theme. I wanted to put it aside and go on but every time I turned around I was 'seeing' someone as they existed in another life time. My Grandfather was at a loss and I asked him if he believe me. He told me,


"Grandson, the most a man can do in this sort of case is believe you believe. It would be hard for your Grandpa, even knowing you as I do to take you at your word on such matters."


I told him he was right. I told him,


"Do you trust God on such matters? Then ask God for the truth about what I am dealing with. Let God give you testimony of what I am dealing with."


My Grandfather was divided because his religion taught against such matters. He told me I was right and wouldn't have expected me to ask anything less of him.


He did his own meditations and prayers specifically designed toward our personal conversation. He came back to me awhile later and told me he had gotten word from God on the matter and had a direct belief in what I was telling him.


He told me that a couple of spirits visited him in the night. He was astonished by the whole memory of it and told me he wasn't about to tell anyone else what he was going to reveal to me. He didn't think other minds would understand. (He was referring to other family members.)


They (the two spirits) told my Grandfather why they were there and who sent them. They spoke for awhile about the matter and then they told him to research a scripture and allow his heart to interrupt the scripture based on my dialogue with him. He told me he felt that was how the scripture was designed. To seek counsel with spirit and not with a man made institution of Church. He told me that he realized that a Church could take on the role of being a 'false teacher' concerning spiritual matters.


When I choose to talk to friends later about the revelations coming to me directly I always used my experience with my Grandfather as a reference. I never expect anyone take me at my word concerning my own direct experiences. I always ask the same thing I asked my Grandfather.


"Ask God for the truth."


I have told many people this over the years and I was surprised how many people told me - it don't work that way. I would reply and tell them,


"There is the problem."


I don't think science or religion is meant to be a substitute for the real deal. Every religion in the world could start preaching a theory on reincarnation but that preaching isn't going to eliminate personal doubts. Every science journal in the world could start publishing evidence or testimony in support of reincarnation and even that is not going to eliminate personal doubt. In my experiences when a person established a direct and intimate relationship with the Creator of their own personal understanding then spirit would work wonders though it's own path and give their mind direct information that eliminates all doubt.


My confidence isn't derived from my experiences. My confidence comes from the fact that I have the greatest witness in the world who will back me up 100% if called on in spirit. I don't speak or write on any spiritual matter unless I am assured I have that backing.


The gate is straight

My personal belief is that we are all on a journey to discover truth for our selves and it always (in my opinion) ends up at the same source. Our Creator.


DK

 

[fiziwig]

Hi all,
This is a debate forum, and not a classroom, which is why I stepped back for a while hoping others would join in before replying. I believe the vast majority of us here have undergone one or more experiences that have been beyond our normal understanding of "reality", and have come here in an attempt to share them and learn from others. I know that all the years in which I have been participating here have been a wonderful opportunity to do so.


Gary, I have already apologised for having entered the debate, after having been away for so long, in a manner which may have come across as a "bite in the but", but the real reason behind it was my concern that any kids coming into this forum might start believing that, under the realization that we are in our essence indestructible and eternal Souls, one is free to act as one pleases with no consequences, seeing as "we are already perfect beings and will end up in Heaven anyway". From my own experience, I believe (or rather "know") this not to be true.

Should we also be worried that children who come to believe in reincarnation might figure since they get another chance anyway, when things get too tough in this life, they might as well end it and start over?


I think that more than anything else we need to understand how important it is for us to be here, in the life we are in right now. There's no short cuts. If you skip this class you will have to take it again.


I know, that contradicts my earlier statement about life just being a "game". But I don't mind contradicting myself, given that everything I believe is just a series of wild guesses anyway. In all likelihood I'm not only wrong, but I'm so far wrong that while in human incarnation I couldn't even begin to comprehend how things really are!


I'm sure realty is WAAAAAY more strange than anything we could ever imagine.

One other thing (and in this I am aware that I run the risk of "shooting my own foot") is that, to the best of my knowledge, there are several "spheres" to the Spiritual Realms, and that the Soul or Spirit, when it leaves the physical body, finds itself in the sphere most coherent with the vibrations of its state of consciousness. If it is true that "consciousness creates" in the physical realms, this is even more so in the spiritual. Just because a Soul is in the spiritual realms, this does not mean that it is instantly struck by a bolt of lightning and is suddenly aware of all the answers. One other thing is that, from what I know, one thing the Spirits do in the Spiritual Realms is to study also, for not even they have the answers to all the questions...
Charles

I really hope that's true. Yes, I know I really like the theory that reality is just some kind of "game", but I also really like the theory that this physical plane is a kind of classroom.


I guess I'll have to be satisfied with believing one thing on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, and something else on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, with time off for deep and unbiased soul searching on Sundays.


The one thing I really know for sure is that no matter how certain one is of one's beliefs, there's a better than even chance that those beliefs are completely wrong. In spite of how deep and profound a mystical experience we might have had, or how amazing and NDE we might have experienced, (no offense DK) we are still left to interpret what we have experienced, and we are still, as humans, very likely to interpret it wrong.


I think the most important aspect to attaining wisdom is learning to be comfortable with uncertainty; to be OK with not knowing for sure. Most people are not OK with uncertainty, so they grasp too readily at the easy answers.

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi Gary,

Should we also be worried that children who come to believe in reincarnation might figure since they get another chance anyway, when things get too tough in this life, they might as well end it and start over?

Don't do that, kids, silly thing to do. You'll just have start all over again. By taking away your own life, you will just bring more suffering unto yourselves, and to those you love and who love you as well. And you will miss your Mum and Dad like crazy!!!!


As I said, "no hell is eternal", and things do always look brighter in the morning after a good night's sleep. It is the gift we receive every day to start a new life afresh!!!


You can change your lives at any time. Sometimes you might feel that it will only change after some time. Be patient!!! But rest assured that it will!!!


Just as we hold no right to take another's life, the same applies to ourselves. We are here for a reason, and the reason is to live our lives and learn from them, and evolve as the Soul-Consciousnesses that we are. By taking one's own life one is simply delaying a process that will most probably have to be repeated again anyway. So don't do it, kids!!!!


The knowledge of the afterlife is a comfort. Not a burden...


Gary, I DO agree with you with A LOT of what I have seen you share here over the years, including what you have said in your last post. I believe the greatest mistake anyone can make regarding spirituality is to assume the position of "I am right and you are wrong". All we need do is look back at history to understand that. And I believe we also know how much of an error this is even to this date...

 

[Truthseeker]

I think the most important aspect to attaining wisdom is learning to be comfortable with uncertainty

This reminds me of somthing that I heard before that the only way we can reach our potential in life is to learn to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. In order to grow, we much expand beyond our current boundaries, and the only way this is achieved is through being outside of our comfort zone.

Most people are not OK with uncertainty, so they grasp too readily at the easy answers.

I believe this is the backbone of virtually all organized religion. People fear the uncertainty of what is not understood. Religions of all shapes and sizes, all are the world, provide for them the answers they crave, and gives them piece of mind. Whether it is a tradition that is thousands of years old, or someone who says they have had the truth revealed to them, it lifts that uncertainty from people's consciousness.
We all would like to know for sure, but we won't until we get there.