Life in Argentina in 40s and early 50s, looking for others

[BriarRose]

I think you are going about things in a good way, finishing your education first. I didn't know that people believed that Peron and Eva would return to finish their work. That's very interesting. I think you will find your life purpose regardless of who you were, and make the person you are now count.

 

[Chinita]

Well, naturally for most of them it's figurative. They believe a good, strong leader with the same ideas is going to come and be something similar. It's not necessarily a good thing; a few past presidents (and the current one) have used that sentiment to their advantage, just using the Peronist name to get elected. That's another reason why the idea of having been Eva makes me nervous: I don't want to be seen as another one of those sort. >_>


The person who I am hardly differs from the one I was since I'm still a crazy little fireball that people can love or hate, I've just learned in the past 61 years what's important to me in life and what isn't.

 

[Owl]

I think you are going about things in a good way, finishing your education first. I didn't know that people believed that Peron and Eva would return to finish their work.

WHat?? No, nobody believes that here! Argentines just like to say that every new president is the hope and the saviour of the country, that for the first two weeks, then he is just another corrupt politician. I even remember when Nestor Kirchnerr took presidence in 2003 they were saying that he was "the gray man" that according to some prediction was going to save the country. But I never heard anything about Perón or Evita coming back (No matter how much Cristina likes to portray herself as the new Evita). People will try to emulate them, sure, because that' s good propaganda for half the population (the other half are anti-peronists and hates them both). But besides that, there' s nothing esoteric going around with the Perons.

 

[BriarRose]

Every Peronist does believe in some way or another that we're supposed to somehow come back when we're needed again, after all. If I'm Eva and this isn't the reason for my life this time, I don't know what is.

I was presuming that Chinita knows more about the internal politics of Argentina than I do - which I admit is nothing! This is one debate I will stay out of. I do like the new Pope though - I hope no one finds that inflammatory. You and Chinita can work this out for yourselves!

 

[Chinita]

Hahaha no, there's nothing to work out. Everything Owl said is 100% true. I think a lot of Peronists wish they'd come back, but with just about every politician lately they're a savior for a few days and poof, their real side shows and it's gone. Ask anyone and they'll tell you the same story: the people keep hoping the next one's a new hero of some sort. That's what I mean by Peronists believing the Peróns will come back (not literally)- they're hoping someone really is that savior, which I highly doubt will happen any time soon, looking at who Argentina has to chose from today.

 

[Inhaltslos]

they're hoping someone really is that savior, which I highly doubt will happen any time soon, looking at who Argentina has to chose from today.

Well, this sounds like every single country out there lately.


Now, I am not Argentine. I'm the Yanqui expat who moved here and got married. I am surrounded by portenos all day, from my work mates to my partner's family to the peeps on the colectivos/subte. Even my dog and little cat are rescues from the Argentine streets. Buenos Aires is my home. And I understand this country, and it's history, very well.


But before it was my home, I would fly down here and "vacation". I had so many preconceived ideas about how Argentina was. Honestly, probably these were due to that Madonna movie and some report I did about Peron in high school. 'Argentines lurrrrrve the Perons and talk about the good ol' days'...this is what I thought. This is what everyone thinks. Oh yes, and let's not forget the tango...people dance tango in the streets here, right? cover face


None of these things are accurate. Some of the stories I would hear about this country, the things that are far from the fairytale, would leave me scratching my head...but it wasn't until I was actually living here (NOT VACATIONING) did I understand. Argentines are completely different than people from the US and the most important differences are so subtle that you can't see them right away. The citizens now are not the same people who were here during Evita's lifetime.


It's obvious that you want to help. And I can understand, on a past life level, that the feeling is strong. But as someone who feels a pull towards a past life country as well, I can tell you that the Argentina that you remember (?) is most definitely NOT the Argentina that exists today. I've done the same thing with Germany and every time I've gone there, I was surprised, and let down, that it didn't match what I remembered.

Every Peronist does believe in some way or another that we're supposed to somehow come back when we're needed again, after all.

I've never once heard about this, and my Argentine family, cleanly split down the middle between Peronists and...uh, let's just call them "anti-Peronists", discuss politics quite a bit. And even if they thought this, I am not sure which Peronist splinter group would actually have the pelotas to even express this openly and loud enough to reach your ears.

Hahaha no, there's nothing to work out. Everything Owl said is 100% true. I think a lot of Peronists wish they'd come back...

That's what I mean by Peronists believing the Peróns will come back (not literally)-

Oh, I see...hm.

If I'm Eva and this isn't the reason for my life this time, I don't know what is.

Ok, so how are you going to do it?


I recommend to you, Chinita, that you harness your strong, warm feelings towards Argentina to something tangible. There are plenty of things to fix here (believe me), so you could probably pick any subject that grabs your interest and go from there.


I think it would do you some good to join some of the expat forums out there...they are geared towards English-speaking people that either live here or plan to live here. Just Google 'baexpats' and you'll find an excellent, hopping community. I also advise that you read the online newspapers, "The Herald" if you only speak English and "Clarin" if your Spanish is ok or you don't mind using Google translator. (Ohh yeah...Clarin. If you know anything about the political climate in BA, you'll understand what I mean here.)


What I don't want to see happen for you is to have a very romanticized idea of Argentina and her people, realize it's far from the truth when you get a little older, and become so disappointed that you end up not doing anything. If we're talking about things on a level of the soul and your purpose, that would be a step in the wrong direction, wouldn't it? But having an idea that you'll come here and enter politics is not a decision to be taken lightly and needs some reality and direction. For one, I don't know how you can enter politics without being a citizen, and Argentina probably has the most relaxed immigration policies on the planet. There is also a very healthy mood of suspicion towards all foreigners and their rose-colored glasses, so I wouldn't bank on people 'just knowing' that you're Evita and handing over their trust to you. If you're from the US in particular, you'll have even more of a problem.


Now, this doesn't mean that this couldn't happen for you. I don't want you to read this post and think I am raining on your parade or saying you can't do it. Not at all. But if you want to make a change, you need to know what's happening here and you need to work, not to only have a realistic view of the Argentine culture, but to also have some street cred with these people.


I love Argentina. Like I said above, it's my home and the home of my family. The culture is AMAZING, but unfortunately, the citizens have been completely shortchanged, and have been shortchanged for decades. It makes me very angry that the people I care about live this way, where I can just fly home if things get rough...so before you answer this post with, 'Oh yes, inhaltslos...everything you're saying, I already know,' stop and really think about if you do. Having online friends who live in Argentina doesn't cut it. Coming here on vacation and, I'd venture to say, even attending university here and living as "the foreign student" doesn't cut it, either. I've experienced and seen things here that I never thought I ever would. PM me sometime and I'll tell you all about it.

I do like the new Pope though -

I do, too!

 

[Chinita]

I'm glad you bring the whole fantasy thing up. Had you said all this a year or so ago, I probably would have brushed it off and ignored you. I've thankfully since lost that romanticized view of Argentina and now can't expect much else from moving there but a cheap one-room apartment, at least a decent education, and employment of some sort, mainly because I don't know what's there, and I admit that. There might have been a little disappointment from losing that fantasy, but it's made me more curious. Oh yes, and it'd be silly if I didn't realize there's more metal fans than tango fans nowadays.


A friend has recently pointed me in the direction of an expat forum (it may be the same one, actually), which I will be looking into soon. I do read the BA Herald as often as I can, even though it may not be as often as I wish, and yep, I know of Clarín. I certainly hope you don't think I'd even dream of just jumping into politics like that. Though I have a general idea of what's happening, I know that as a foreigner I don't know anything beyond that, so I plan to study first and then do whatever life throws at me. Ultimately I'd love to get into politics, but if I don't, that just means I was meant for something else this time. I know I'm probably always going to be the Yanqui girl, and my mother being from another country I can understand why people wouldn't like that. I live here and I'm still not a big fan of the American way. God forbid I ever actually expect anyone to know/recognize I'm Eva, because I'm hoping you and Owl will be the only two Argentines that ever hear of this. And believe me, I don't know exactly how everyday life is down there, but I know it's gotten very bad, and if I didn't realize that, I don't think I'd be as driven to go back. Now, if I go there, it will be in winter 2015 (US summer) or later, so someone new will be running the government by that time. I'm a bit worried (actually, more than a bit worried) about that just because no one seems to be sure what's going to happen. For all I know, it could get even worse than it is now just as I'm trying to move in and settle down. If I didn't at least realize that, I'd definitely be insane.


I really have to thank you for taking the time to say all this, Inhaltlos, because it's good to hear and because it's reassuring that no one's going to baby me and feed those old fantasies. I'd also love more than anything to hear about your experiences there.


I also like the Pope. Just saying.

 

[Owl]

Have you actually wondered what you're going to do with a degree from political science from an argentine university? As far as I know, knowing political science won't get you anywhere near politics, the degree is pretty much only useful to... write books about political science. Maybe to be a teacher if you do an extra 2 years of pedagogical subjects. Also, except you stay in Argentina your whole life, a degree from UBA on political science won' t be of much use (if even recognized) in the US. You take political science in the Social Sciences school ... which is like saying the "social communist school", most of the political systems you' ll see will be from Latin America, with extra emphasis on the far left, and I don't know, even things about the Soviet Union and Cuba that they seem to adore so much in Social sciences and philosophy school. That might not help much in your homeland, except again, to write books about political science.


I would recommend being a lawyer more actually, even though you might need to take some equivalencies when you go to the US. You' ll have more chances in politics at least that way and you might be able to find the legal hole so you can stay in the country.

 

[Chinita]

Actually, I've had to consider it since my mother and friends who live there always insist on discussing the subject. I'd much rather write books about political science than become a lawyer, and studying law there would get me nowhere if I returned to the US. Law is something I've considered in the past, but I'm not sure it'd be in my best interest.


Also, if I do return to the US after finishing my studies, I plan to find another university at which I can continue my education, which will be more useful in getting a job. However, studying politics for a few in Latin America may prove to be an advantage if I wanted to work with the state department or something like that, for example. Studying law there, on the other hand, would either leave me unemployed or forced to stay in Argentina.


Now of course this is all just a plan. Nothing says yet that I'm going to study in Argentina or that I'm not, and I've got two years more to figure things out. I may end up just going to college two hours from home for all I know.


P.S. If you really do think law is a good idea, I may reconsider it.

 

[Chinita]

Well, I think I've grown up a lot in the few months since my last posting and can honestly say I'm a bit embarrassed. Right now I've officially got no idea of what I'm going to do in college or even next semester, I've no idea what country I'll be studying in (much less what university), but for now I think I'll be stuck in the US. This is scary given that I'm a year and a half from graduation. Good news is I'll be visiting Argentina in June/July, though whether or not that's actually good is debatable.


I've been keeping an eye on what's been happening there lately and share everyone's disgust. It's forced me to come to the same conclusion as my friends and anyone else with half a brain in Argentina- Peronism needs to finally die. It's become a sick religious cult that politicians can use to manipulate a good chunk of the population, and it needs to die for Argentina to move forward. If I was Eva in my last life, then all I have to say is that I am sorry for helping to cause this. I feel really sick when I see her face everywhere for no good use but cheap propaganda and I want it to end because I see it as my face too. I've seen twisted, obsessed people come from Peronist groups, anti-Kirchnerist and pro-Kirchnerist alike, and I can relate because I once used to be one of them before I sort of woke up. I don't want to destroy what I worked so hard for in my last life (or the memory of my own past self), but it's what's completely necessary. I'm beginning to think that perhaps I'm not here to finish what I started, I'm here to aid in its destruction. We may have done some good in the past, but the Peróns belong in history, not in the present. I only wish Peronists would believe that I was Eva in the past so I could tell them all this and they'd actually listen.


I'm sorry if this is awfully emotional but this sentiment has been growing in me since late November and I've had no one to express it to. I've only got friends that know Argentina and two or three friends that believe in reincarnation that would listen, and the circles do not overlap.

 

[BriarRose]

Welcome back, Chinita. I can't comment on what is obviously a very complex political situation - that is for the citizens of Argentina to solve. I can say, though, that you can't blame yourself for something that Eva set in motion. We sometimes act with good intention, and a situation becomes twisted. When I think back on my own current life mistakes, I realize that I acted in the best way at the time, with the information at hand. The same is true for our past incarnations - they didn't have the knowledge of current historical developments, and maybe not the spiritual knowledge that we have now. Forgive Eva, and forgive yourself. I can guarantee that you will have to do that, throughout your life.

 

[Twilight]

Hello there, welcome to the forum I was still in my long slumber during the times your mentioned so I have no memory in Argentina

 

[Owl]

I've been keeping an eye on what's been happening there lately and share everyone's disgust.

I don´t really see much difference between what´s going on now and what was going on before except the whole dollars issue.

It's forced me to come to the same conclusion as my friends and anyone else with half a brain in Argentina- Peronism needs to finally die. It's become a sick religious cult that politicians can use to manipulate a good chunk of the population, and it needs to die for Argentina to move forward.

Lol, peronism was always like that my dear, since their beginnings. Anyways, Cristina is not a real peronist, Perón detested people like her.

I'm beginning to think that perhaps I'm not here to finish what I started, I'm here to aid in its destruction. We may have done some good in the past, but the Peróns belong in history, not in the present. I only wish Peronists would believe that I was Eva in the past so I could tell them all this and they'd actually listen.

People never listen to anything, much less peronists. Good luck in trying to destroy peronism. It's due to Peronism that Argentina started its decadence and economic troubles.

 

[Chinita]

Well, it's been a while, but I guess it would be a good idea to post a bit. I've been in Buenos Aires and seen much of the city and now have no doubts that I used to live here. It seems I know this city better than I think I do. Once I actually ended up going the wrong way trying to get somewhere because I thought that my own sense of direction was wrong- turns out I knew where I was supposed to go the whole time! It's been emotional. I'm frustrated with myself because I feel like I ought to be able to speak Spanish better, I'm happy that I'm often mistaken for a local, I've gotten sad at times because I've seen a lot of things that have changed beyond recognition, but overall I'm relieved to be back because it seems I'm supposed to be here right now for some reason or another.


What's probably going to bother me later on though is the thought of all the people on the streets and in the Subte stations I saw asking for just a little spare change to care for themselves or their children, and I never gave out a single peso. I feel like I'd rather risk the possibility of having that money wasted in the hopes of actually helping someone who needs it than just keep my money for me, but unfortunately I've been kept from doing that.


Also, I'm very creeped out by the amount of things that have Eva Perón's face on them that don't need Eva Perón's face on them. I can't wear an Evita t-shirt because I guess I recognize her face as mine and it seems ridiculous to me, so imagine how I am when I see entire dresses, jewelry, purses, coffee mugs, and probably everything else you could slap her face onto besides the moon.


I've had a few weird experiences here. I happened to go to Recoleta Cemetery right before the big rainstorm that hit Buenos Aires a few days ago (literally! it started pouring right after we managed to get inside for lunch) and of course I went to Eva's tomb. When I first found it I didn't longer long because I was terrified of all the coffins I saw in the surrounding mausoleums, but I later felt compelled to go back, and the second time I sort of ended up staring at the tomb as if my mind had gone completely blank. I don't even know what happened, but eventually my mother sort of woke me up from the trance, so to speak. We walked around a little more, but once we actually left the cemetery I began to feel absolutely drained of energy. It's hard to explain how it felt; my body felt fully awake and functioned properly, but my mind was sort of in a fog and I had a hard time keeping my eyes open. I swear I have never felt anything like that before. I think I wrote about him before, but there's a guy who I've known for a while now who I've suspected might have been Perón. We met for dinner the next day, and after we started holding hands I started feeling the same way- absolutely drained mentally despite being very happy about being near him (have to add we seem made for each other, as silly as that sounds as well). Haven't felt that way since. There's been tons of déjà vu experiences as well, but that seems less relevant.


One of the saddest moments of this trip so far was when I walked past the national library the other night, which was apparently built on the site of one of the Peróns' homes. It struck me pretty hard then that I would never be able to go back or have any of what I had then. I'll never be able to go back to a lot of the places I called home, and even if I do, it won't be the same, I won't have my old things, i won't have the people I knew then, and what else could I possible have again?


I don't even know what I'm writing at this point. It's kind of late and I'm kind of out of it, haha. But I'm pretty sure this reflects how I feel, unfiltered for the most part.

 

[argonne1918]

Thanks for the update. We've missed you. I wonder how many people get to go back to geographic locations where they lived in past lives?

 

[Chinita]

If I could do anything I'd try to return to back then because somehow I feel like I'm missing something and I haven't figured out what it is. Should I just try some meditation or self-hypnosis of some sort? I really feel like it's essential for me one way or another to relive something from back then, so-to-speak. The more I see here that I recognize the stronger the feeling gets.

 

[Inhaltslos]

You should of let Owl and I know you were in town! We could of gone out for a coffee and had a past lives chat. I also know all the great coffee places around there.


I used to work about 2 seconds from the Recoleta Cemetery, until my company moved a bit more north last year. Gorgeous part of town, and though I don't miss my very long commute, I do miss all the parks, fountains, museums, and architecture loveliness Recoleta and Palermo have to offer.


Anyways, glad to have you back.

 

[Chinita]

I would have loved to have met with you both when I was there. Unfortunately, traveling with others that wouldn't have been possible (I don't need anyone else hearing all of that). Perhaps next time I'm there it will be different, and we can sit in some cafe and talk for hours about these things.


Since I've returned from Argentina I feel like I've been in some kind of bad dream and I'm supposed to wake up back in Buenos Aires. It's silly, I know, because I've lived in the same place my whole life, but this just doesn't feel much like home anymore. Maybe I need to find some sort of post-Argentina therapy or something, haha.


In all seriousness, though, I've been crying way too much over the fact that it will be so long before I can return. I've travelled around the world and I've never felt such a strong attachment to a country and its people before (not in this life, at least).

 

[Chinita]

Totally not related to Eva/Peronism at all, but I've been having the same sort of drawing to the Argentina of the early and mid 19th century that I had to the 30s/40s/50s due to my life then (and no, I'm not claiming to be Encarnacion Ezcurra). Note to non-Argentine people, I apologize that absolutely none of this post will make any sense to you. There were two people whose images are pretty much virtually everywhere nowadays that seemed very familiar to me, Rosas and Belgrano (ok, I know, Rosas isn't exactly everywhere, but my boyfriend and his friends are nationalists). I know it sounds crazy but I felt like I couldn't look at images of them like normal people do, I guess, and even by my standards it wasn't normal either. I sort of felt like I knew them as normal people instead of the great heroes(?) they're pumped up to be, so the conclusion was I had to have had contact with both of them, which seemed really odd considering the time difference, I guess you could call it.


For more hints at who I might have been I tried using a self-regression recording one evening when my parents were out, but unfortunately all I got out of it was that my name began with a J and ended in an A, and I was somewhere where there was a big house and a lot of grass. With that in mind I dug through names of family members and other people of the sort, primarily on Rosas' end, and that didn't bring up anything that rung a bell. Inevitably I stumbled upon the character of Maria Josefa Ezcurra, who definitely rang some bells, and if you look her up you find that she's Rosas' sister-in-law and was one of Belgrano's lovers at one point. I'm pretty sure the drama that played out in that family ought to be a soap opera already, but whatever.


Anyhow, I threw down the towel at this point because I figured all of that Paka Paka stuff I had seen in the past had gotten to my head (yes, I watch that weird acid trip of a show they run that teaches little kids about Argentine history in the strangest and most unrealistic way possible, but I can't help it, I needed to find some way to learn the basics that I missed by being born and attending school in the wrong country), but then shortly after I figured out that when I was in Buenos Aires, I had actually stumbled into the former home of Maria Josefa. Imagine that I learned that months after I left the country! What happened was I had gone to find a museum that I had wanted to visit since forever, but it turned out to be closed that day since it was Flag Day. When I turned back to head to the nearest Subte line I decided to take a street different from the one that I had walked on to get there, and as a result I ended up in a small museum that is housed in her old home. Either it was just a coincidence or I went down that way for a reason. Also, it may just be my imagination, but I feel like Maria Josefa Ezcurra looks an awful lot like Eva Peron with a longer chin IMHO.


With all this said, I'd like to do some research on this woman to see what I can dig up, maybe some clues pointing me towards or away from her or towards someone around her. Unfortunately being a Yankee I'm unsure of where to start since I've exhausted Wikipedia's knowledge of her as well as that of any other normal go-to internet sites, and the bookstores on Corrientes are just a tad bit too far away from me at the moment. I feel weird coming out about this because I think I've already conjured up enough unwanted attention as the mysterious girl who thinks she might have been Eva Peron once and the combination of these two stories probably sounds crazy, but I'd appreciate any help I can get figuring this mess out, especially from people who are actually familiar with what I've been talking about.

 

[Chinita]

(I wanted to add this as an edit to my last post but apparently I'm not allowed to have that many words in one post, so here goes. Sorry for spamming!)


I can't believe I forgot to mention this, but things to tend to slip one's mind when writing past midnight. One day I was relaxing listening to a song that wasn't from the time period (I mean, it was a milonga from the 1930s or 40s for crying out loud) and I had a sort of memory from a ball or party of some sort. They clearly weren't dancing a milonga, which makes sense because I read that milonga wasn't common until decades later, but they were instead dancing some sort of a fast-paced minuet or something like that, but I'm not a dancer, so I'd have no idea what to call it. Pretty sure I saw Manuelita Rosas or someone who looked a lot like her. Might have been dancing with her father, but no clue. Any ideas? Is this just a figment of my imagination?

 

[tanguerra]

Hi Chinita


I've just read through all this. Very interesting indeed!

..but I feel like Maria Josefa Ezcurra looks an awful lot like Eva Peron with a longer chin IMHO.

I think they do look remarkably similar. I agree with you. Same shaped eyebrows, same nose, cheeks and eyes. They do seem to have a similar slightly mischievous smile, judging by later portraits of Maria Josefa. Obviously both very pretty.

...They clearly weren't dancing a milonga, which makes sense because I read that milonga wasn't common until decades later, but they were instead dancing some sort of a fast-paced minuet or something like that, but I'm not a dancer, so I'd have no idea what to call it...

Yes, the Milonga only came in about the 1890s or so, which is too recent. It wouldn't have been a minuet, but it may have been a 'quadrille' which was all the rage at the time. That involved people pairing up and making various formations. Ever seen a movie of a Jane Austen book? That was the sort of thing. Have a look here. Does any of this make sense?


http://twonerdyhistorygirls.blogspot.com.au/2010/06/dance-sensations-of-1820.html

No. 2.—SECOND GROUP OF PARISIAN DANCERS. FIGURE DANCE TO THE QUADRILLE MUSIC OF L'HORATIA.
The music of this dance, is the favourite Quadrille air of L’Horatia.—The dance commences with the English figure of right and left all round. Each gentleman then performs the balancez to his partner and turns her round with both hands. The ladies take hands all round, then follows the demi promenade à quatre, and the figure finishes with half right and left, after an open chassez by each couple....

 

[Chinita]

Between the time that I made my last post on this thread and your response I looked to see if I could find the dance and I came to the same conclusion that it was probably a quadrille/cuadrilla, something typically European that they slightly "Argentinized."

They do seem to have a similar slightly mischievous smile, judging by later portraits of Maria Josefa. Obviously both very pretty.

That's one of the sweetest things I've heard in a while. I still sort of have that smile, btw.